Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[druckle]

OK thanks. No I did it in normal power mode, 30W normal pulsing.



OK, so basically I need to take it to between 412 - 440°C I guess. and my earlier pulses (to yellow) were simply failed attempts at doing that, not providing any benefit to the end goal. Makes sense.

And yeah I don't have an oven that can anywhere near 400 °C

Yeah yellow and blue I see, although now you mention it I wonder if I might be going up to purple sometimes. I'm not sure if I could tell the difference that easily. I will have to do a test where I video it up close and keep heating until I've gone all the way to white.

Actually I have gone too far once before, right up to one of those Titanium fires but that was so quick I couldn't see the intervening stages.



Thanks, but I'm afraid I don't really follow Are you saying that the blue colour, once achieved, will further change over time? Or that the period of heating also affects the colour change?

So we're told that 440°C = Deep Blue. Are you saying that the time over which the wire is held at 440°also plays a part? Or that it could reach that colour if it was heated at a lower temperature, for a longer period?

Also how does this correlate with the colour change chart that @SotosB posted?

Yes....the color of heating changes with time. The color is a function of the oxide thickness not the temperature itself. High temperatures grow the oxide thickness faster than low temperatures..but the oxide gets thicker as time increases at constant temperatue. As the oxide gets thicker with time the color changes. The rate of the oxide growth is more affected by temperature than it is by time...but time still matters quite a bit. If you put a piece of titanium in a furnace it will go through all the color changes starting with yellow...through blue to purple etc.....and all at a constant temperature.

Not sure I explained it well. Does that make sense?

 

[TheBloke]

Yes....the color of heating changes with time. The color is a function of the oxide thickness not the temperature itself. High temperatures grow the oxide thickness faster than low temperatures..but the oxide gets thicker as time increases at constant temperatue. As the oxide gets thicker with time the color changes. The rate of the oxide growth is more affected by temperature than it is by time...but time still matters quite a bit. If you put a piece of titanium in a furnace it will go through all the color changes starting with yellow...through blue to purple etc.....and all at a constant temperature.

Not sure I explained it well. Does that make sense?

No that's fine, seems to make perfect sense. Thanks!

So that suggests it is possible to 'push it along' as I ineloquently phrased it. How then can we correlate this with the temperature in that scale that Sotos posted? I'm trying to find the source for that.

If it says, say, 440C = Dark Blue, do we assume that means 440 of instantaneous/brief heat makes it that colour? But that maybe X minutes of half that temp would also get there?

I need to go for dinner now but will do some more research when I get back. @SotosB if you could post the source/link for your colour chart that would be really helpful.

 

[druckle]

No that's fine, seems to make perfect sense. Thanks!

So that suggests it is possible to 'push it along' as I ineloquently phrased it. How then can we correlate this with the temperature in that scale that Sotos posted? I'm trying to find the source for that.

If it says, say, 440C = Dark Blue, do we assume that means 440 of instantaneous/brief heat makes it that colour? But that maybe X minutes of half that temp would also get there?

I need to go for dinner now but will do some more research when I get back. @SotosB if you could post the source/link for your colour chart that would be really helpful.

I think that color chart must be based on some constant short time at each temperature but I don't know what time that is. That's why I wouldn't trust the color in relation to temperature a whole lot. Color changes with time...and if I don't know the time I don't know much at all.

 

[TheBloke]

Ok thanks @druckle

No prizes for guessing what this means I must do! As @TheotherSteveS predicted, it's cooking time for me!

I will cut off maybe 200mm of 24 gauge and stretch out between two screws attached to something metallic or at least heat resistant. I will put it in the oven at 260°C (500°F) which is the hottest either of my ovens will go. I will check it every hour. I will report back

Just a little safety question - nothing too bad will happen if I happen to heat it to its spontaneous combustion point, right? It didn't seem to cause a problem when I did that accidentally via pulsing - it burned a little in one part of the wire causing that part to shrivel and partially collapse, but not so much as to break the wire on its own; it crumbled when I later touched it.

I'm assuming it's unlikely I could even reach that point with a continuous temperature of 260°C/500°F but thought I should check!

 

[TheBloke]

FYI I have found what must be @SotosB 's source for the temp chart, a forum/message board post: Heat-coloured titanium

This says the source for that info is this book: Jewelry Concepts and Technology

 

[druckle]

Ok thanks @druckle

No prizes for guessing what this means I must do! As @TheotherSteveS predicted, it's cooking time for me!

I will cut off maybe 200mm of 24 gauge and stretch out between two screws attached to something metallic or at least heat resistant. I will put it in the oven at 260°C (500°F) which is the hottest either of my ovens will go. I will check it every hour. I will report back

Just a little safety question - nothing too bad will happen if I happen to heat it to its spontaneous combustion point, right? It didn't seem to cause a problem when I did that accidentally via pulsing - it burned a little in one part of the wire causing that part to shrivel and partially collapse, but not so much as to break the wire on its own; it crumbled when I later touched it.

I'm assuming it's unlikely I could even reach that point with a continuous temperature of 260°C/500°F but thought I should check!

IT WILL NOT combust...oxide will make sure that does not happen. One of my hobbies is making titanium jewelry...and I've heated titanium for many hours at 1750F 954C for 24 hours to cause it to become very hard under all that oxide layer....no combustion.
To get combustion you have to heat something thin very quick to a very high temperature or have it rubbing against something really hard and fast while it's hot. Not gonna happen.

On the other hand thin sections....like powder....do NOT throw titanium powder into a hot furnace. It doesn't burn ....it explodes! Hotter than magnesium. (Iron powder burns too if it's fine enough as in sparks from grinding etc.

 

[druckle]

Ok thanks @druckle

No prizes for guessing what this means I must do! As @TheotherSteveS predicted, it's cooking time for me!

I will cut off maybe 200mm of 24 gauge and stretch out between two screws attached to something metallic or at least heat resistant. I will put it in the oven at 260°C (500°F) which is the hottest either of my ovens will go. I will check it every hour. I will report back

Just a little safety question - nothing too bad will happen if I happen to heat it to its spontaneous combustion point, right? It didn't seem to cause a problem when I did that accidentally via pulsing - it burned a little in one part of the wire causing that part to shrivel and partially collapse, but not so much as to break the wire on its own; it crumbled when I later touched it.

I'm assuming it's unlikely I could even reach that point with a continuous temperature of 260°C/500°F but thought I should check!

Peek in your oven now and then to watch how the colors change. (I'm always fascinated by little things like that)

 

[SotosB]

Actually it was Heat coloring of titanium forum, based to Jewelry: Concepts And Technology: Oppi Untracht: 9780385041850: Amazon.com: Books as you said. After some research, I'm thinking that temperature is the main factor for the coloring. The time it is exposed at given temp (or voltage when it is anodised) makes the layer of the TiO2 more consistent. It needs more heat for the chemical reaction to create a thicker layer. That's my thoughts and I'm no expert. Take e look at this video too:

Of course time even in normal condition, will affect oxidation but when it reaches its goal seems to stop forming a thicker layer.

 

[awsum140]

A question just occurred to me. Why is "blue" the desired color? It would seem to me, in my non-educated metallurgically brain, that black would indicate a really "thick" layer of oxide which might be preferable. Maybe I missed that answer previously.

 

[druckle]

A question just occurred to me. Why is "blue" the desired color? It would seem to me, in my non-educated metallurgically brain, that black would indicate a really "thick" layer of oxide which might be preferable. Maybe I missed that answer previously.

I don't know that blue is preferred for vaping. Maybe because it's pretty? There isn't any black there is a little darker blue but thick oxide is white and at that point it spalls off easy.

 

[awsum140]

Well, blue is a nice color but watching that video made me wonder. It did appear black, at least on my craptop monitor, in that last demonstration which is why I picked black.

 

[tchavei]

A question just occurred to me. Why is "blue" the desired color? It would seem to me, in my non-educated metallurgically brain, that black would indicate a really "thick" layer of oxide which might be preferable. Maybe I missed that answer previously.

I don't know that blue is preferred for vaping. Maybe because it's pretty? There isn't any black there is a little darker blue but thick oxide is white and at that point it spalls off easy.

Blue is cool

I think that as long as we stay away from dull grey, any color is good.

Even dull grey doesn't mean it will flake off and enter your vape but until some real studies appear, I feel better with yellow or blue.

Heck, if I could stop my coils unwinding without heating the wire, 'shiny' would be enough for me

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[SotosB]

Blue is cool

Heck, if I could stop my coils unwinding without heating the wire, 'shiny' would be enough for me

I agree. It's really cool
But I don't really want to form any TiO2 on my coils. It seems constintent but as we know, it's not ever tested for vaping. A coil has been dilated and contracted too many times in its life time (I only hope I use the correct terms ) in juice, so who can be sure that it will not pass in our vape? I prefer to not heat it at all and make a spaced coil, which I think produces better flavor too.

 

[Mistaree]

Good Evening All
Its been nearly 6yrs vaping & like many other vapers I got into using Temp Control with my iPV4. Unfortunately, the Ni200 wire left me feeling like sumtin was missing. The Kanger Subtank TC coils sucked & the nickel wire has great flavor, but it still wasn't warm enough for me. Plus its an absolute pain to build with, no matter how careful I am with it. And to top it off, the last couple of days my throat has been bothering me & I'm pretty sure its the Nickel wire. I ran across some vids using Titanium wire & since the ECF is where I start most of my research, here I am. I'm not exactly sure what kind of wire to get. I was looking at the Spider Silk by Envy and also the Grade 1 99.7% pure Titanium wire. My preference is dual coils, so I was thinking the 28 gauge equivalent would be perfect.

Well, at any rate ... A little guidance would be greatly appreciated. I'm a firm believer that Temperature Control is gonna be a beautiful thing once all its kinks are worked out. I'm still in search of that perfect vape & I know I'm close...

 

[Rossum]

28 or even 26 should work fine for duals.

 

[druckle]

Good Evening All
Its been nearly 6yrs vaping & like many other vapers I got into using Temp Control with my iPV4. Unfortunately, the Ni200 wire left me feeling like sumtin was missing. The Kanger Subtank TC coils sucked & the nickel wire has great flavor, but it still wasn't warm enough for me. Plus its an absolute pain to build with, no matter how careful I am with it. And to top it off, the last couple of days my throat has been bothering me & I'm pretty sure its the Nickel wire. I ran across some vids using Titanium wire & since the ECF is where I start most of my research, here I am. I'm not exactly sure what kind of wire to get. I was looking at the Spider Silk by Envy and also the Grade 1 99.7% pure Titanium wire. My preference is dual coils, so I was thinking the 28 gauge equivalent would be perfect.

Well, at any rate ... A little guidance would be greatly appreciated. I'm a firm believer that Temperature Control is gonna be a beautiful thing once all its kinks are worked out. I'm still in search of that perfect vape & I know I'm close...

I have tried dual coils with temperature limiting mods several times and have always had problems getting the two coils to heat at the same rate and to the same temperature. At the low resistances needed for temperature limiting devices I have never been able to get any two coils to have resistances close enough to make things work right.
Do you have a secret as to how to do two coils with almost exactly the same resistance?

Duane

 

[SotosB]

I have tried dual coils with temperature limiting mods several times and have always had problems getting the two coils to heat at the same rate and to the same temperature.

I guess some day we will have dedicated microprocessors for every single coil in our atties, controlling temp and wattage of each, no matter what the resistance is, so that we will have the best vaping experience in every puff.

 

[tchavei]

I have tried dual coils with temperature limiting mods several times and have always had problems getting the two coils to heat at the same rate and to the same temperature. At the low resistances needed for temperature limiting devices I have never been able to get any two coils to have resistances close enough to make things work right.
Do you have a secret as to how to do two coils with almost exactly the same resistance?

Duane

With Titanium Coils? I have experienced that trouble with nickel but not Ti

Tony

 

[TheotherSteveS]

With Titanium Coils? I have experienced that trouble with nickel but not Ti

Tony

You pulse them right? I was wondering how you would know if they are balanced otherwise.

 

[TheBloke]

I guess some day we will have dedicated microprocessors for every single coil in our atties, controlling temp and wattage of each, no matter what the resistance is, so that we will have the best vaping experience in every puff.

It may be here sooner than you think - have you seen Innokin's new foray into TC, which appears to be a sensor in the atty itself such that it can detect the temperature of Kanthal. Seemingly only with coil heads in their first tank, but maybe with rebuildables soon after (hopefuly, anyway!) Check out this thread, especially my post here.