Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[TheotherSteveS]

Int

Hope your going to turn it over halfway to make sure both sides are well baked

I reckon he is filming it!! A watched cake never bakes (or something like that) lol!

 

[awsum140]

The Julia Child of vaping, but don't forget the butter!

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Maybe a time-lapse. Now that would be cool. Watch the colours changing. Pretty!!

 

[TheBloke]

I did not set up the camera, no - too much effort for the first go That would be cool once I know anything is achieved (I had a thought of doing time lapse for the pulsing)

Update: 65 mins in, no change whatsoever. At least not that I can tell through the oven door (with kitchen lights off). I am pretty sure I'd be able to tell, the wire looks obviously silvery still.

I do rather have the feeling this could be somewhat anti-climatic

I'll try and leave it in for four hours. If it hasn't changed after four hours @ 240 then I can't imagine I'd want to use this method long term anyway. Mayyyybe for doing a whole spool at once - if that even works.

I'm wondering now if I should have turned the fan oven on - that does give a bit more temp, at least food recipes always say a lower temp for fan! I have no idea if that also applies for bare wire

And isn't air good, we think? For forming the oxide layer? Not that it's exactly in a vacuum at the moment, but still. I could easily turn it on now without removing the wire, the oven can do either at the turn of a dial. I just don't know if I want to pollute this test. But I suppose this test could be called 'is it possible under any scenario' and we can get a bit more scientific in future ones if this actually does anything.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

I did not set up the camera, no - too much effort for the first go That would be cool once I know anything is achieved (I had a thought of doing time lapse for the pulsing)

Update: 65 mins in, no change whatsoever. At least not that I can tell through the oven door (with kitchen lights off). I am pretty sure I'd be able to tell, the wire looks obviously silvery still.

I do rather have the feeling this could be somewhat anti-climatic

I'll try and leave it in for four hours. If it hasn't changed after four hours @ 240 then I can't imagine I'd want to use this method long term anyway. Mayyyybe for doing a whole spool at once - if that even works.

I'm wondering now if I should have turned the fan oven on - that does give a bit more temp, at least food recipes always say a lower temp for fan! I have no idea if that also applies for bare wire

And isn't air good, we think? For forming the oxide layer? Not that it's exactly in a vacuum at the moment, but still. I could easily turn it on now without removing the wire, the oven can do either at the turn of a dial. I just don't know if I want to pollute this test. But I suppose this test could be called 'is it possible under any scenario' and we can get a bit more scientific in future ones if this actually does anything.

I vote for the fan!!

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Tom seriously grilling it is the way to go!! That will heat the stuff up!!

 

[druckle]

I did not set up the camera, no - too much effort for the first go That would be cool once I know anything is achieved (I had a thought of doing time lapse for the pulsing)

Update: 65 mins in, no change whatsoever. At least not that I can tell through the oven door (with kitchen lights off). I am pretty sure I'd be able to tell, the wire looks obviously silvery still.

I do rather have the feeling this could be somewhat anti-climatic

I'll try and leave it in for four hours. If it hasn't changed after four hours @ 240 then I can't imagine I'd want to use this method long term anyway. Mayyyybe for doing a whole spool at once - if that even works.

I'm wondering now if I should have turned the fan oven on - that does give a bit more temp, at least food recipes always say a lower temp for fan! I have no idea if that also applies for bare wire

And isn't air good, we think? For forming the oxide layer? Not that it's exactly in a vacuum at the moment, but still. I could easily turn it on now without removing the wire, the oven can do either at the turn of a dial. I just don't know if I want to pollute this test. But I suppose this test could be called 'is it possible under any scenario' and we can get a bit more scientific in future ones if this actually does anything.

You know now that I think of it, the last time (a long time ago) that I wanted to color up some titanium in my oven I seem to remember that I had to use the auto clean on the oven. I think that was like 900F or some such. I should have mentioned that but I didn't think of it till I read your post.

I'm not sure it's worth it but that's your call. I think we already have the take-away that titanium is really pretty good in oxidation at our temps of interest. Gotta remember that the oxide skin on there is really thin when it's silver...but the oxide is VERY resistant to outward diffusion of metal atoms. The oxide grows by inward diffusion of oxygen and diffusion through a ceramic skin is slow even for little guys like oxygen atoms.

Apologies for not having my brain in gear earlier.

Duane

 

[druckle]

BTW the reason I was experimenting with the oven and titanium color was that I wanted to color up some titanium hands I was making for a free pendulum clock I was making. The whole thing was designed with a moon phase globe on top that was geared to be accurate to 1 minute in 450 years so my over-active but useless brain thought that blued steel hands would likely have rusted by the time someone checked the moon phase accuracy so....yeah, gotta have titanium hands. Would you like to tell me that I sometimes overdo things?

 

[TheBloke]

Tom seriously grilling it is the way to go!! That will heat the stuff up!!

Well yeah that's basically like torching I suppose! Albeit at a longer distance. I think that I would have to watch more closely. I'll try oven only, with fan for second two hours (about to go check/change) for the first test, but yeah if this does nothing I'll try that too.

You know now that I think of it, the last time (a long time ago) that I wanted to color up some titanium in my oven I seem to remember that I had to use the auto clean on the oven. I think that was like 900F or some such. I should have mentioned that but I didn't think of it till I read your post.

I'm not sure it's worth it but that's your call. I think we already have the take-away that titanium is really pretty good in oxidation at our temps of interest. Gotta remember that the oxide skin on there is really thin when it's silver...but the oxide is VERY resistant to outward diffusion of metal atoms. The oxide grows by inward diffusion of oxygen and diffusion through a ceramic skin is slow even for little guys like oxygen atoms.

What's an oven auto-clean? A special mode that's really hot? 900°F should definitely do it and quick because that's nearly 500°C which is above the "instantaneous" temperature for blue we looked at the other day, the same sort of temp I'm (presumably) reaching when I pulse - and Tony torches.

So is your thought now that a long period of 470°F (Edit: or possibly up to 520°F) will be insufficient to ever change its colour, and so temperature not time is the only real factor?

Or when you say slow do you mean it will be possible, just we're talking very long periods of time at these lower temps? Days not hours?

 

[TheBloke]

Turned the fan on at about 100 minutes in.

And it looks like the oven may be up to 10% hotter than it claims. This might explain why I burn so much food (that and having the cooking aspirations of a shrivelled slug.)

I have one of those IR thermometer guns. I opened the door and pointed it around for a few seconds - not too long as I didn't want to let too much heat out. It read 265 - 272°C (509 - 521°F). I don't know if the wire itself will be quite that temp as I probably got a reading of the back and side walls which presumably are hottest. But it's definitely over 240 anyway.

 

[druckle]

Well yeah that's basically like torching I suppose! Albeit at a longer distance. I think that I would have to watch more closely. I'll try oven only, with fan for second two hours (about to go check/change) for the first test, but yeah if this does nothing I'll try that too.



What's an oven auto-clean? A special mode that's really hot? 900°F should definitely do it and quick because that's nearly 500°C which is above the "instantaneous" temperature for blue we looked at the other day, the same sort of temp I'm (presumably) reaching when I pulse - and Tony torches.

So is your thought now that a long period of 470°F will be insufficient to ever change its colour, and so temperature not time is the only real factor?

Or when you say slow do you mean it will be possible, just we're talking very long periods of time at these lower temps? Days not hours?

Auto clean is a feature on the oven that locks the door and takes the temp really high to turn any organics in the oven to ash.
You will get color eventually at the lower temperature but it will just take a lot longer. I would guess Tony's torch went a lot hotter than 500 but maybe not. I'm pretty sure I had to leave my titanium clock hands for quite a while to get a good blue even with the "clean" function on. Come to think of it I think I was using Ti-6Al-2Sn-4Zr alloy too because I happened to have a big sheet of that available. The clock inner workings were 6-2-4-2 and that has even better oxidation resistance than Grade 1 commercially pure Ti because of the other alloying elements in there. Don't take my guesses on time too seriously. I could be misleading you.

Too bad you are not doing this in winter. At least the heat could warm the house rather than be wasted.

Duane

 

[druckle]

If you persevere I'll be really interested to see how long it takes you to get to gold then to blue. I still have the feeling that it's going to take quite a while...and yes, temperature is a LOT more important than time at temp in getting the colors.

 

[awsum140]

Why do I feel like I'm watching paint dry, and I'm all the way across the pond?

 

[TheBloke]

OK thanks Duane

Too bad you are not doing this in winter. At least the heat could warm the house rather than be wasted.

Yes that's the other big factor - even if this works, do we really want to be running ovens at 250°C / 480°F for hours on end? Especially when it can be done in 5 minutes total for a couple of coil's-length of wire on a mod - and no doubt similar or less time with a torch.

Maybe I could even do longer lengths of wire on the mod, that might be worth testing. I've done 150mm stretches so far, I am sure I could push that at least to 300mm with longer/higher-wattage pulses. The only issue might be large temperature differences across the wire, such that part was blue while another part was still silver, and thus the former would go beyond blue before the latter reached blue.

Worth a go, though. 300mm is at least two big coils (26G / 3mm / 10 wraps / 0.5Ω) and could be three smaller ones.

Even if it's max 150mm, doing them in a session is quite efficient - cut off, say, 1.5m of wire, cut it into 10 or 12 strips, put them one by one into the atty and over half an hour or so pulse them all to blue then straighten and store them in a box/drawer for later use.

What I'd really like for this and other purposes is a better "quick wire installation" system. I am using my Vulcan clone when I want a quick ohms reading on a stretch of wire, and for this pulsing: because it has thumb screws so it's fairly quick and easy to get wire in and out. But what would be even better is an atty base - basically a male 510 connection - to which was soldered two short wires with crocodile clips on the end. Then wire could be attached in seconds for fairly accurate ohms reading (minimal amounts of interconnecting wire between mod and coil/wire) and for this pulsing.

I was looking earlier on eBay for silicone DMM leads with crocodile clips and they usually seem to be rated up to 20A which should be fine.

 

[TheBloke]

Why do I feel like I'm watching paint dry, and I'm all the way across the pond?

You know I totally missed a trick here. I should have set up the cam as Steve said... and then live streamed it via YouTube!

That would be hilarious, you all sitting there watching my oven

Just to keep you guys fully updated with fuel for speculation, I checked it just now (155 minutes) and it's just possible that there's some yellowing. It's very hard to tell without opening the door, which I don't want to do. I kept the kitchen lights off and peered in through the door and moved my head around to see from different angles. The oven has a light which is fairly near one of the stretches of wire. It looks yellow under that light. Now, it did when I first put it in as well - to be expected from a yellowish light shining on silver wire, especially viewed through that heat resistant glass that ovens have which can distort colours a bit.

However it did seem to me that it was more yellow over a longer area than it looked through the door at the 30 minute mark.

As I say, may be nothing at all - just the light on the base silver colour. Or, it might be PROGRESS.

Either way, I felt it was my duty to keep you guys fully informed of the exciting process, or possibly lack thereof, that you are sadly unable to witness first-hand.

 

[druckle]

OK thanks Duane



Yes that's the other big factor - even if this works, do we really want to be running ovens at 250°C / 480°F for hours on end? Especially when it can be done in 5 minutes total for a couple of coil's-length of wire on a mod - and no doubt similar or less time with a torch.

Maybe I could even do longer lengths of wire on the mod, that might be worth testing. I've done 150mm stretches so far, I am sure I could push that at least to 300mm with longer/higher-wattage pulses. The only issue might be large temperature differences across the wire, such that part was blue while another part was still silver, and thus the former would go beyond blue before the latter reached blue.

Worth a go, though. 300mm is at least two big coils (26G / 3mm / 10 wraps / 0.5Ω) and could be three smaller ones.

Even if it's max 150mm, doing them in a session is quite efficient - cut off, say, 1.5m of wire, cut it into 10 or 12 strips, put them one by one into the atty and over half an hour or so pulse them all to blue then straighten and store them in a box/drawer for later use.

What I'd really like for this and other purposes is a better "quick wire installation" system. I am using my Vulcan clone when I want a quick ohms reading on a stretch of wire, and for this pulsing: because it has thumb screws so it's fairly quick and easy to get wire in and out. But what would be even better is an atty base - basically a male 510 connection - to which was soldered two short wires with crocodile clips on the end. Then wire could be attached in seconds for fairly accurate ohms reading (minimal amounts of interconnecting wire between mod and coil/wire) and for this pulsing.

I was looking earlier on eBay for silicone DMM leads with crocodile clips and they usually seem to be rated up to 20A which should be fine.

If you wanted to heat a whole spool of wire how about setting up a couple of spools and a little crank with a torch statically mounted between the two spools and just turn the crank watching the color change from silvery to blue ....could work?

 

[TheBloke]

Four hours in, no change to wire colour at all

Maybe I'll try grilling it tomorrow More likely, I'll just pulse in future

Duane - I like the idea of the torch automation! But I don't own a torch at all, and it's something I've not bought because they seemed fairly expensive (about $30) for something I didn't think I'd use that often. I thought I might re-consider if pulsing wire didn't work, but it did. Maybe sometime in the future

 

[druckle]

Four hours in, no change to wire colour at all

Maybe I'll try grilling it tomorrow More likely, I'll just pulse in future

Duane - I like the idea of the torch automation! But I don't own a torch at all, and it's something I've not bought because they seemed fairly expensive (about $30) for something I didn't think I'd use that often. I thought I might re-consider if pulsing wire didn't work, but it did. Maybe sometime in the future

Makes sense.....
Hey...how about a spool at each end of the grill with a crank?

Duane

 

[druckle]

Four hours in, no change to wire colour at all

Maybe I'll try grilling it tomorrow More likely, I'll just pulse in future

Duane - I like the idea of the torch automation! But I don't own a torch at all, and it's something I've not bought because they seemed fairly expensive (about $30) for something I didn't think I'd use that often. I thought I might re-consider if pulsing wire didn't work, but it did. Maybe sometime in the future

I've forgotten now why it was you wanted to color up the titanium. Was it to soften it a little?
Duane

 

[TheBloke]

It's almost un-coilable in its native state. Springy as hell, sometimes won't even hold its shape around the rod let alone support adjustment. Once made blue it's pretty malleable and adjustable.

I'm not sure if that's a factor of it being softer or not - perhaps? Tony has experimented with this more, I've only tried coiling a non-blue wire once, my first time, and since then I've always pulsed it.

Once blue it can also be used with contact/micro coils - as much because it will actually hold the shape as it also not shorting out, though that might also come from the pulsing, we're not sure (we haven't tried a non-blue contact coil yet; Tony said he couldn't get it to hold together as contact until blue.)