Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[TheBloke]

Well, blue is a nice color but watching that video made me wonder. It did appear black, at least on my craptop monitor, in that last demonstration which is why I picked black.

Blue is cool

I think that as long as we stay away from dull grey, any color is good.

Even dull grey doesn't mean it will flake off and enter your vape but until some real studies appear, I feel better with yellow or blue.

Heck, if I could stop my coils unwinding without heating the wire, 'shiny' would be enough for me

Yeah I just went with blue just because Tony said that was a good temp for making the coil manageable, without going too far. It also looks good But frankly so does yellow.

What I haven't done is test the relative malleability/ease of use of different colour coils - but I assumed Tony had, and that's why he recommended blue (at least versus yellow.)

 

[TheBloke]

IT WILL NOT combust...oxide will make sure that does not happen. One of my hobbies is making titanium jewelry...and I've heated titanium for many hours at 1750F 954C for 24 hours to cause it to become very hard under all that oxide layer....no combustion.
To get combustion you have to heat something thin very quick to a very high temperature or have it rubbing against something really hard and fast while it's hot. Not gonna happen.

On the other hand thin sections....like powder....do NOT throw titanium powder into a hot furnace. It doesn't burn ....it explodes! Hotter than magnesium. (Iron powder burns too if it's fine enough as in sparks from grinding etc.

OK awesome, thank you!

So what kind of special equipment are you using to heat up to nearly 1000°C? Something very expensive, I will assume!

Peek in your oven now and then to watch how the colors change. (I'm always fascinated by little things like that)

Yeah I really like that too! Even just with the pulsing. Actually maybe especially with the pulsing. Makes me feel like a wizard

 

[Shiggles]

So I'm intrigued with getting some Ti to use on my M-class. Originally I was looking at going the simple route and picking up a Mini subtank or a Smok TCT and just play around with the Nickel pre-built coils. It seems like a lot of people are having issues with these though? At least that's what I was gathering. Anyhow, I don't have any experience wrapping Nickel myself and it seems like a pain. All of these lead me to this thread, haha. I read through the first 15 pages and then a couple pages back from the end , and just want to make sure I got a clear understanding of everything.

Ti grade 1 is safe to use on a SX M-class, correct?
Any color is good, blue is Ideal, and avoid dusty grey?
So you guys are pre-heating your coils before wicking them? Are you torching them or just pulsing them?
And lastly, say I did pick up a Subtank plus or Mini--Is it feasible to do a Ti coil on the rebuild deck? Any recommendations on Gauge sizes?

Thanks in advance for the help, and the entertaining thread!

 

[tchavei]

You pulse them right? I was wondering how you would know if they are balanced otherwise.

Yep. On duals only though. I don't pulse single coils

Yeah I just went with blue just because Tony said that was a good temp for making the coil manageable, without going too far. It also looks good But frankly so does yellow.

What I haven't done is test the relative malleability/ease of use of different colour coils - but I assumed Tony had, and that's why he recommended blue (at least versus yellow.)

I tried various color ranges and once the coil got blue (even only on one side) it stopped being springy and held the shape perfectly. With purple and beyond I have a distinct feeling the wire gets weaker somehow, I stop requiring wiggling the leg ends for minutes until they finally break off. Not sure weaker is the best term, maybe less elastic or more brittle?

So I'm intrigued with getting some Ti to use on my M-class. Originally I was looking at going the simple route and picking up a Mini subtank or a Smok TCT and just play around with the Nickel pre-built coils. It seems like a lot of people are having issues with these though? At least that's what I was gathering. Anyhow, I don't have any experience wrapping Nickel myself and it seems like a pain. All of these lead me to this thread, haha. I read through the first 15 pages and then a couple pages back from the end , and just want to make sure I got a clear understanding of everything.

Ti grade 1 is safe to use on a SX M-class, correct?
Any color is good, blue is Ideal, and avoid dusty grey?
So you guys are pre-heating your coils before wicking them? Are you torching them or just pulsing them?
And lastly, say I did pick up a Subtank plus or Mini--Is it feasible to do a Ti coil on the rebuild deck? Any recommendations on Gauge sizes?

Thanks in advance for the help, and the entertaining thread!

Personally I lightly torch them as I found it easier to control the amount of heat. I'm sure pulsing is fine too as long as you don't form too much TiO2 which you can see by a grey dull layer over the wire.

Hardened nickel or 26g normal nickel isn't much of a headache to coil and wick. I wouldn't dismiss nickel just because of its mechanical properties.

Ti has, in my opinion, several advantages and, lately, a few knowledgeable people also have expressed their opinion that, among all others, Ti is probably the safest bet.

Obviously without scientific studies, we will never know so take this with a grain or two of salt.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

OK awesome, thank you!

So what kind of special equipment are you using to heat up to nearly 1000°C? Something very expensive, I will assume!



Yeah I really like that too! Even just with the pulsing. Actually maybe especially with the pulsing. Makes me feel like a wizard

Hey Tom,

did you try the oven??? lol!

Steve

 

[TheBloke]

Hey Tom,

did you try the oven??? lol!

Steve

Not yet! It's on my list, don't worry Actually I've got a separate oven, one of those combined microwave/oven things, that has been in the loft because I haven't needed it for ages. I might get that down, it'll be more convenient than going down to the kitchen. Besides which I don't want my wire smelling of roast beef and pizza when I vape it

Edit: actually now I think about it, that might not be the worst thing!

 

[BigEgo]

Personally, from a health perspective, I like the idea of using a pure metal as a coil. This means if I am being contaminated with metallic nano-particles, well at least I only have one type to worry about (and not 3 or 4 such as is the case with alloys like kanthal). This is why titanium is looking more and more promising to my layman, high-school drop-out eyes. It isn't a "heavy metal" like nickel or chromium and is generally considered (there is some debate) to be inert in the human body. It is used in biomedical implants (try that with nickel or chromium). It is not a known carcinogen (it is class 2B, which is a "possible carcinogen." This classification was based solely on animal studies). Titanium also seems pretty corrosion resistant, even at high temps.

There are animal studies out there that suggest inhaling TiO2 might have some adverse effects, but those are animal studies and, to my knowledge, have not been replicated in humans. Also, the results vary based on the species being tested (rat studies have showed lung tumor growth, but the same tests on mice and hamsters did not which I find very interesting considering they are all rodents). The human studies I have looked at (workers in factories, etc) vary in the results. Some show no correlation between TiO2 inhalation and cancer, while others show a very slight (but statistically significant) increase in cancer risk. However, these studies did not provide a dose-response relationship so there's no way to know if the levels of TiO2 in the air between the two groups were similar. We do know that inhaling anything but pure air can have deleterious effects as it is believed that any nano-particle (no matter the element) can be dangerous depending on its shape, crystalline structure, etc. Nonetheless, even if there is a theoretical risk with TiO2 nano-particles, it certainly cannot be greater than the very well known (and quite nasty) effects of the heavy metals like nickel, lead, tin, chromium, etc.

Years from now we will all probably look back on this and laugh. Once we have a lot more science under the belt, I think we will find that we wasted our time with metal safety. More than likely if there's any real dangers in e-cigs, it's going to be in the flavorings (I just have a hunch about this). I just don't feel that we are heating our coils (of any type) hot enough to expose ourselves to levels of metals that matter. We aren't working in environments where TiO2 will be floating around at high concentrations. Maybe I am wrong, but I hope not. I do hope, however, that there are studies done on these metals as they relate to vaping, as I am not suggesting it should be an area that is ignored.

When I "worry" about vaping safety I am more concerned with what compounds are in all those tasty flavors and whether my juice is being heated to a point where the chemical structure of the solvents and flavors are degrading into carbonyl compounds.

I got most of the info above from an excellent study I found that examined the literature in regard to the safety of Ti particles. It seems pretty comprehensive.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Not yet! It's on my list, don't worry Actually I've got a separate oven, one of those combined microwave/oven things, that has been in the loft because I haven't needed it for ages. I might get that down, it'll be more convenient than going down to the kitchen. Besides which I don't want my wire smelling of roast beef and pizza when I vape it

Edit: actually now I think about it, that might not be the worst thing!

Lol! How about a roast beef pizza! Worse would be if your pizza strted tasting of heavy metals...

 

[druckle]

With Titanium Coils? I have experienced that trouble with nickel but not Ti

Tony

Sheez...after my nickel experience I never tried with titanium. I guess I can get out all my dual coil attys that I liked and give it a go with the Ti duals. I never thought they would be useful again after going over to the "bright side" with titanium. Thank you sir. You may have reopened a whole old side of vaping for me.

Duane

 

[druckle]

OK awesome, thank you!

So what kind of special equipment are you using to heat up to nearly 1000°C? Something very expensive, I will assume!

Nothing special...just a garden variety kiln for ceramics. (I have too many hobbies)

 

[druckle]

Personally, from a health perspective, I like the idea of using a pure metal as a coil. This means if I am being contaminated with metallic nano-particles, well at least I only have one type to worry about (and not 3 or 4 such as is the case with alloys like kanthal). This is why titanium is looking more and more promising to my layman, high-school drop-out eyes. It isn't a "heavy metal" like nickel or chromium and is generally considered (there is some debate) to be inert in the human body. It is used in biomedical implants (try that with nickel or chromium). It is not a known carcinogen (it is class 2B, which is a "possible carcinogen." This classification was based solely on animal studies). Titanium also seems pretty corrosion resistant, even at high temps.

There are animal studies out there that suggest inhaling TiO2 might have some adverse effects, but those are animal studies and, to my knowledge, have not been replicated in humans. Also, the results vary based on the species being tested (rat studies have showed lung tumor growth, but the same tests on mice and hamsters did not which I find very interesting considering they are all rodents). The human studies I have looked at (workers in factories, etc) vary in the results. Some show no correlation between TiO2 inhalation and cancer, while others show a very slight (but statistically significant) increase in cancer risk. However, these studies did not provide a dose-response relationship so there's no way to know if the levels of TiO2 in the air between the two groups were similar. We do know that inhaling anything but pure air can have deleterious effects as it is believed that any nano-particle (no matter the element) can be dangerous depending on its shape, crystalline structure, etc. Nonetheless, even if there is a theoretical risk with TiO2 nano-particles, it certainly cannot be greater than the very well known (and quite nasty) effects of the heavy metals like nickel, lead, tin, chromium, etc.

Years from now we will all probably look back on this and laugh. Once we have a lot more science under the belt, I think we will find that we wasted our time with metal safety. More than likely if there's any real dangers in e-cigs, it's going to be in the flavorings (I just have a hunch about this). I just don't feel that we are heating our coils (of any type) hot enough to expose ourselves to levels of metals that matter. We aren't working in environments where TiO2 will be floating around at high concentrations. Maybe I am wrong, but I hope not. I do hope, however, that there are studies done on these metals as they relate to vaping, as I am not suggesting it should be an area that is ignored.

When I "worry" about vaping safety I am more concerned with what compounds are in all those tasty flavors and whether my juice is being heated to a point where the chemical structure of the solvents and flavors are degrading into carbonyl compounds.

I got most of the info above from an excellent study I found that examined the literature in regard to the safety of Ti particles. It seems pretty comprehensive.

I like your thinking.

 

[tchavei]

I just spoke with Pedro (the one collaborating with Dr. F) and he confirmed what we have been empirically saying (at least me, I doubt anything coming from duckle can be called empirical, that man rocks )

Anyway, he too believes that any color except dull grey is pretty safe to vape as the TiO2 is pretty thin and pretty much locked on the coil.

I would paste part of the latest conversation but it's against ECF rules and it's in Portuguese so it wouldn't help much

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

I just spoke with Pedro (the one collaborating with Dr. F) and he confirmed what we have been empirically saying (at least me, I doubt anything coming from duckle can be called empirical, that man rocks )

Anyway, he too believes that any color except dull grey is pretty safe to vape as the TiO2 is pretty thin and pretty much locked on the coil.

I would paste part of the latest conversation but it's against ECF rules and it's in Portuguese so it wouldn't help much

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Hey thanks Tony. I've had a pretty extensive email exchange with Pedro Carvalhos and have thoroughly enjoyed it. Of course being able to converse directly is a lot more effective. I'm glad you took the opportunity to do that. VERY helpful.

Pedro likes to be conservative in his statements on such things as oxidation and dry burning and doesn't seem to subscribe to extremism in any way. I really respect that. Actually at the core my impression is that he and I have significant agreement on almost all issues.

It was, and is, a pleasure to exchange views with Pedro and others like yourself who care about vaping.

Duane

 

[Mistaree]

Thanks so much, for your help. I went ahead & pulled the trigger on some Spider Silk off Ebay. Hopefully, I'll get it before the week is out or by the weekend at least. I've had no problems doing dual coils with nickel wire. Will dual coils be a problem with Titanium ? And will I run into any issues with micro coils or does it have to be spaced apart like nickel wire ?? Its 3am & I'm thinking about throwing some nickel coils in my Rampage clone, then again... Its too late to start fiddling with atties, but at least I know what I'm gonna do in the morning, when I wake up from my 3rd sleep... lol
Ahhh mann, you gotta luv the vape & the vape will luv you back....Happy Vapes Vaporheads !!

 

[Shiggles]

Yep. On duals only though. I don't pulse single coils

I tried various color ranges and once the coil got blue (even only on one side) it stopped being springy and held the shape perfectly. With purple and beyond I have a distinct feeling the wire gets weaker somehow, I stop requiring wiggling the leg ends for minutes until they finally break off. Not sure weaker is the best term, maybe less elastic or more brittle?



Personally I lightly torch them as I found it easier to control the amount of heat. I'm sure pulsing is fine too as long as you don't form too much TiO2 which you can see by a grey dull layer over the wire.

Hardened nickel or 26g normal nickel isn't much of a headache to coil and wick. I wouldn't dismiss nickel just because of its mechanical properties.

Ti has, in my opinion, several advantages and, lately, a few knowledgeable people also have expressed their opinion that, among all others, Ti is probably the safest bet.

Obviously without scientific studies, we will never know so take this with a grain or two of salt.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Thanks for the reply Tony! Haha, no worries I take most things with a grain of salt . I suppose might give Nickel a shot at some time as well. Back to Ti, any recommendations for gauge size and vendors?

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Not yet! It's on my list, don't worry Actually I've got a separate oven, one of those combined microwave/oven things, that has been in the loft because I haven't needed it for ages. I might get that down, it'll be more convenient than going down to the kitchen. Besides which I don't want my wire smelling of roast beef and pizza when I vape it

Edit: actually now I think about it, that might not be the worst thing!

Tapping of fingers......

ps. you might ask why I dont try it myself to which I have no good answer...Gas Mark 20 it is is!!

 

[TheBloke]

It doesn't come out very well but there's a triangle of 28G on this oven tray thing tied between the three legs.

You can fairly easyily see one stretch of it, running from bottom left of picture to middle-right, and just make out the second going from there to leg at top-left-of-centre.




It's in at the moment, 240°C. I'll check it after a couple of hours.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

It doesn't come out very well but there's a triangle of 28G on this oven tray thing tied between the three legs.

You can fairly easyily see one stretch of it, running from bottom left of picture to middle-right, and just make out the second going from there to leg at top-left-of-centre.




It's in at the moment, 240°C. I'll check it after a couple of hours.

I am smiling in admiration. You are a nutter! I love it!!

...I suppose I partially put you up to it so we will rejoice together in our incipient insanity!! Lolol

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Don't forget to baste it every 20 mins!!! Heston Blumenthal would love this!!!! I wonder if he vapes..

I feel like I should stay up as a kind of vigil as this momentous experiment unfolds!!

 

[Quantum Mech]

It doesn't come out very well but there's a triangle of 28G on this oven tray thing tied between the three legs.

You can fairly easyily see one stretch of it, running from bottom left of picture to middle-right, and just make out the second going from there to leg at top-left-of-centre.




It's in at the moment, 240°C. I'll check it after a couple of hours.

Hope your going to turn it over halfway to make sure both sides are well baked