Titanium wire, vaping and safety

[TheBloke]

For me currently it's 24g single coils in my Ubertoots, 26g duals in my Origenny. The 24g makes for one hell of a robust coil, the 26 is almost as tough and helps keep the resistance up.
Anything higher gauge is too damn springy for my liking, and I'm too lazy to torch. lol
Haven't found a TI wire yet that didn't need a good clean with alcohol first either (I've tried Zivipf, StealthVapes and Crazy Wire so far).

Funny you should say that, I made my first ever 24G Titanium coil the other day - in the Ubertoot! My clone has a big wire-cutting problem, so I went to 24G to make that less likely. But also it fits well - a slight squeeze but I got a 9 wrap 3.25mm ID coil in there, dead over the air hole. So I think 24G will be my preferred in the Ubertoot from now on.

And yeah most Titanium needs a clean. The two exceptions I've thus far found are Unkamen from the US, and a random Chinese spool from 3F. Was very surprised on the latter! I just ordered yet another spool, this time from fasttech. It's called "authentic Vaper Tech" but I have no idea who Vaper Tech are so that doesn't mean much! (I see a Vaper Tech in the US, but they don't seem to sell any wire, let alone be a supplier for it.)

@TheBloke I'm picking up what you're laying down Brother. It's a habit from Kanthal builds where fusing the coils with a torch gave me a very strong but thin coil, and allowed me to build sufficiently high ohms for my older gen batteries in a narrow coil that didn't too greatly exceed the width of the air source underneath. With Ti, I'm doing more of a spiral than a spaced coil just to GET the width I need between the post holes, and the air is coming from the sides now. I haven't tried TC in my Kayfuns yet, but when I do I am going to TRY to low oxidize then pinch that Ti coil, and the 30 ga may prove a decent build for aforementioned reasons (narrow, strong, & thin). My 30ga is thru the post, but I can sure appreciate your words in that fine act of care in not guillotining the wire with the screw.

As an aside, I wiped my Unkamen wire on the first build with a dry tissue, and got no residue. With my next coils, I wiped using 90% Ethanol, and removed a LOT of black. I do think that the Etoh was critical to a much better cleaning. I'm wondering if there might not be an even better solvent to reach into the porosity of the Ti, as alcohol molecules are considerably larger than water molecules comparatively speaking.

Thanks for all your help in this learning process my friend!

No worries! We're all in the same boat, all learning. I'm far from an expert on coiling and coils in general, there's loads more I would like to learn and experiment with.

That's very interesting about Unkamen - I've only checked a bit of wire so far, and found no residue (when wiping with wet tissue.) I will continue looking for it. It might well vary by wire gauge, and even per spool.

You make a good point about needing to wipe with alcohol or at least with wetness - I have definitely experienced that before; rubbing with dry paper towel gives nothing, but then when I wet it I see a lot of residue.

In general I think everyone should clean their wire thoroughly as a matter of course - even if the last time showed no residue. I have a big 1 litre spray bottle of 99% IPA, so I spray that on paper towel and wipe down each section of wire I cut before I coil it. It only takes a few seconds, so it's no big deal.

Sometimes I also use baby wipes/wet wipes (unscented), because they're already wet and so convenient. But I don't know if the fact they don't have alcohol on them might make a difference. I think it's the wetness that makes the biggest difference, but alcohol probably helps a bit further.

 

[SotosB]

Copied from Sweet Spot Vapors:
"bath time....little coil taking a swim in some Hydrochloric Acid, and Ferric Chloride...after fusing, sintering, or flattening...it's a good idea to thourougly clean your coils of all surface contamination. Our Titanium is resistant to 10% 1N Hydrochloric Acid solution. When you add Ferrich Chloride, as an inhibitor, you can get up to 27% 1N Hydrochloric Acid solution. This is THE most effective way to clean Titanium, as the Acid destroys organic particulates that might cling to the coil surface. Simple alcohol (ethyl) or warm water is also appropriate, but can't do the job of a proper surface treatment.
.....after only 5 minutes in the hCL/FeCl bath, we have a VERY clean surface, and are assured of no oils or contaminants, that could cause hot spots in our coil...when a surface contaminant is "burned" on to a coil, it will always create a metallurgical "imbalance" in the substrate material. Thourough cleaning ensures a nice even heat distribution across your coil. Although we are taking it to the extreme here, a simple alcohol wipe can do WONDERS for the performance of your coils. Please keep in mind that the Acid bath we are using in this series, is ONLY appropriate for our Titanium. DO NOT try to clean any other type of material (especially Nickel) with this method. Most high grade Titanium (pure) can withstand varying degrees of Hydrochloric Acid (hCL). Again ours can take up to 10% 1N solution, and up to 27% 1N solution...with the addition of Ferric Chloride (FeCl3).
...
...then it just needs to take a bath in the ultra sonic with some distilled water and sodium bicarbonate....that will neutralize and remove any hydrochloric residue and stop the acid from tempering the core

 

[GeorgeS]

Last night in an effort to get a evenly spaced coil I dual wrapped some Ti AND Ni in the jig and afterwards unwrapped the Ni wire. Clearly a PITA but it worked.

How are you folks getting evenly spaced wraps with Ti wire?

 

[awsum140]

Bloke, if you have wire cutting problems with through hole coil mounts you need to do two things.

1 - Grind the ends of the screws flat. They come with a fairly sharp cup on the end as a result of being threaded. A quick application of a Dremel with a cutoff wheel used as a grinder while holding the crew with forceps works quite well

2 - Fill the hole under the through hole with something. The screw is projecting down below the through hole cutting the wire as you tighten the screw. I use 30 gauge nickel, repeatedly tightening the screw to cut off tiny pieces to fill the hole.

I had the same problem with authentic Foggers and this is the cure that I still use.

 

[awsum140]

Last night in an effort to get a evenly spaced coil I dual wrapped some Ti AND Ni in the jig and afterwards unwrapped the Ni wire. Clearly a PITA but it worked.

How are you folks getting evenly spaced wraps with Ti wire?

Same way as with Kanthal. Wrap a coil spaced wider than I really want then compress it on the mandrel when done. Everything evens out and a nicely spaced coil is the result.

 

[TheBloke]

Speaking of ultrasonic baths, I have taken to washing my Titanium coils in my ultrasonic. I put the atomizer deck in my ultrasonic containing water and mild detergent as used for washing dishes. I leave the Titanium coils still attached to the deck. I dry pulse them (in TC mode) before and after. I need to re-tighten the screws after removal from the bath, but otherwise they are fine and with the same resistance as before.

That gets them cleaned very well, with no residual smell of the last juice.

Speaking of SSV, the above is either advanced technical information or complete nonsense. Hard to tell with those guys.

 

[druckle]

Copied from Sweet Spot Vapors:
"bath time....little coil taking a swim in some Hydrochloric Acid, and Ferric Chloride...after fusing, sintering, or flattening...it's a good idea to thourougly clean your coils of all surface contamination. Our Titanium is resistant to 10% 1N Hydrochloric Acid solution. When you add Ferrich Chloride, as an inhibitor, you can get up to 27% 1N Hydrochloric Acid solution. This is THE most effective way to clean Titanium, as the Acid destroys organic particulates that might cling to the coil surface. Simple alcohol (ethyl) or warm water is also appropriate, but can't do the job of a proper surface treatment.
.....after only 5 minutes in the hCL/FeCl bath, we have a VERY clean surface, and are assured of no oils or contaminants, that could cause hot spots in our coil...when a surface contaminant is "burned" on to a coil, it will always create a metallurgical "imbalance" in the substrate material. Thourough cleaning ensures a nice even heat distribution across your coil. Although we are taking it to the extreme here, a simple alcohol wipe can do WONDERS for the performance of your coils. Please keep in mind that the Acid bath we are using in this series, is ONLY appropriate for our Titanium. DO NOT try to clean any other type of material (especially Nickel) with this method. Most high grade Titanium (pure) can withstand varying degrees of Hydrochloric Acid (hCL). Again ours can take up to 10% 1N solution, and up to 27% 1N solution...with the addition of Ferric Chloride (FeCl3).
...
...then it just needs to take a bath in the ultra sonic with some distilled water and sodium bicarbonate....that will neutralize and remove any hydrochloric residue and stop the acid from tempering the core

I really should go through my personal files again collected over 35 years as a researcher in materials development in titanium alloys. I don't remember a single mention of "metallurgical imbalance".

I admit it bothers me when someone with little to no knowledge on a technical subject pontificates on technology. Maybe it's associated with a mindset of pretension which facilitates ripping off trusting folks with excess pricing for imaginary, nonexistent properties?

Duane

 

[druckle]

S
Speaking of SSV, the above is either advanced technical information or complete nonsense. Hard to tell with those guys.

Actually Tom I don't think it's hard to tell at all.

Duane

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Actually Tom I don't think it's hard to tell at all.

Duane

Thank you for saving me from unnecessarily wasting my toilet bowl cleaner!

 

[Lavaca5]

Copied from Sweet Spot Vapors:
"bath time....little coil taking a swim in some Hydrochloric Acid, and Ferric Chloride...after fusing, sintering, or flattening...it's a good idea to thourougly clean your coils of all surface contamination. Our Titanium is resistant to 10% 1N Hydrochloric Acid solution. When you add Ferrich Chloride, as an inhibitor, you can get up to 27% 1N Hydrochloric Acid solution. This is THE most effective way to clean Titanium, as the Acid destroys organic particulates that might cling to the coil surface. Simple alcohol (ethyl) or warm water is also appropriate, but can't do the job of a proper surface treatment.
.....after only 5 minutes in the hCL/FeCl bath, we have a VERY clean surface, and are assured of no oils or contaminants, that could cause hot spots in our coil...when a surface contaminant is "burned" on to a coil, it will always create a metallurgical "imbalance" in the substrate material. Thourough cleaning ensures a nice even heat distribution across your coil. Although we are taking it to the extreme here, a simple alcohol wipe can do WONDERS for the performance of your coils. Please keep in mind that the Acid bath we are using in this series, is ONLY appropriate for our Titanium. DO NOT try to clean any other type of material (especially Nickel) with this method. Most high grade Titanium (pure) can withstand varying degrees of Hydrochloric Acid (hCL). Again ours can take up to 10% 1N solution, and up to 27% 1N solution...with the addition of Ferric Chloride (FeCl3).
...
...then it just needs to take a bath in the ultra sonic with some distilled water and sodium bicarbonate....that will neutralize and remove any hydrochloric residue and stop the acid from tempering the core

I'll just pop into my secret lab and get right on this.

 

[tchavei]

Bloke, if you have wire cutting problems with through hole coil mounts you need to do two things.

1 - Grind the ends of the screws flat. They come with a fairly sharp cup on the end as a result of being threaded. A quick application of a Dremel with a cutoff wheel used as a grinder while holding the crew with forceps works quite well

2 - Fill the hole under the through hole with something. The screw is projecting down below the through hole cutting the wire as you tighten the screw. I use 30 gauge nickel, repeatedly tightening the screw to cut off tiny pieces to fill the hole.

I had the same problem with authentic Foggers and this is the cure that I still use.

Number 2 solved my cutting wire problems. I filled all four holes in my mutation x with silver wire and no more cutting problems

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheBloke]

Bloke, if you have wire cutting problems with through hole coil mounts you need to do two things.

1 - Grind the ends of the screws flat. They come with a fairly sharp cup on the end as a result of being threaded. A quick application of a Dremel with a cutoff wheel used as a grinder while holding the crew with forceps works quite well

2 - Fill the hole under the through hole with something. The screw is projecting down below the through hole cutting the wire as you tighten the screw. I use 30 gauge nickel, repeatedly tightening the screw to cut off tiny pieces to fill the hole.

I had the same problem with authentic Foggers and this is the cure that I still use.

Thanks. Yeah I am doing both things, where it is possible. With 1 I tried Dremelling but found it took a while (maybe I'm using the wrong attachment, I never know quite which thing is for what in my $7 knock-off Dremel kit), so instead I hold the screw tight in a vice and then use a hacksaw to cut off the tip. This creates a perfectly smooth surface with a minimum of work.

2 is particularly annoying me in a recently purchased Ubertoot UTA v2 clone, which has hollow posts. But fortunately it also has those posts held in place with M2.5 screws underneath from the base. So I have ordered some longer brass M2.5s and I am hoping to cut the exact right screw length such that I can screw in a longer screw and thus fill the hole to exactly the level of the screw hole.

That Ubertoot has been far the worst wire chopper of recent times, but I do sometimes still have issues even in atomizers that don't match 1 or 2, even authentics such as my Aqua SE which has chunky flat-bottomed screws with the posts straight onto the deck. Ditto UD Goliath v2 and Goblin Mini, though actually the latter I seem to remember has been a bit better than average.

I suppose it's because Titanim is heavily annealed that makes it fairly weak/brittle. But I'm moving more and more to under-screw-head atomizers so it's not bothering me so much any more.

I've heard of people using a drill to "work harden" the wire - just by holding it and twisting it I think - I wonder if that has any benefit? Then again maybe it counteracts the annealing, making it more springy again?

 

[awsum140]

So I have ordered some longer brass M2.5s and I am hoping to cut the exact right screw length such that I can screw in a longer screw and thus fill the hole to exactly the level of the screw hole.

I would suggest stainless screws rather than brass. The brass will oxide, just from the random vapor that reaches them, and you know some will get in there. It might not be a whole lot, but vaping that nice, green, oxide in any amount doesn't appeal to me much.

 

[SotosB]

I've heard of people using a drill to "work harden" the wire - just by holding it and twisting it I think - I wonder if that has any benefit? Then again maybe it counteracts the annealing, making it more springy again?

It's to straighten the wire. This is what I do to prepasre my core for the claptons.

 

[KenD]

Last night in an effort to get a evenly spaced coil I dual wrapped some Ti AND Ni in the jig and afterwards unwrapped the Ni wire. Clearly a PITA but it worked.

How are you folks getting evenly spaced wraps with Ti wire?

Use a machine screw to wrap the coil on. Perfectly spaced coil every time.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

 

[TheBloke]

I would suggest stainless screws rather than brass. The brass will oxide, just from the random vapor that reaches them, and you know some will get in there. It might not be a whole lot, but vaping that nice, green, oxide in any amount doesn't appeal to me much.

Hmm OK thanks, interesting. I have recently been on a big brass kick. I got two Squape Rs clones, one Ivogo and one SXK. Both have stainless positive pins, which are M3 screws. The Ivogo pin was a bit too short, and I had wildly fluctuating TC resistance. So I bought some M3 x 16mm replacement screws, in both stainless and brass.

I then measured their resistance with my Chinese 4-wire 'micro' ohm reader, and was surprised at what I found. The resistance along the stainless M3 x 16mm was around 0.0025Ω. On the brass, it was 0.0002Ω. 12.5 times lower than the stainless.

So I then swapped out the SXK positive as well, and tested the real life benefit on my SX Mini M. A Titanium build that measured 0.421Ω with the stainless screw measured 0.418Ω with the brass - a 0.003Ω difference.

Now I am the first to admit that 0.003Ω is not a huge difference. It's not even 5°C of TC inaccuracy. But I'm of the view that every little helps, and it all adds up - if I can cut out as many little 0.003Ω's and similar in the atomizer, I will get the most accurate TC. And I further admit that part of this is just for the goal of having the most accurate TC, rather than it necessarily being a noticeable difference in the vape Though there are places where one can cut out 0.01 or even more of inaccuracy, and those are more noticeable differences. And if in a single atomizer I could replace three 0.0025Ω stainless components with 0.0002Ω brass ones, then that could ultimately show a 0.01Ω of difference on the mod, and there we can be talking 10°C of improved accuracy.

(Interestingly the amount of inaccuracy from static resistance depends only on the base resistance of the coil, not the coil wire used - the higher the resistance of the coil, the less SR affects the accuracy. This is (yet another) reason why Titanium, Stainless Steel and Resistherm/NiFe30 are better than NI200 with its stupid low resistance. 0.01Ω of SR on a 0.10Ω Ni200 coil is 20°C inaccuracy, compared to 5°C inaccuracy with a 0.50Ω coil of Ti, SS or NiFe30.)

But in all that I didn't realise there could be an oxide risk. Although I do have a number of atomizers which already have brass parts, in particular my Aqua V2 clones and SE authentics which use an all brass positive path which touches the underside of the positive wire - it forms the 'floor' of the positive post, like I am trying to achieve with the Ubertoot. I haven't noticed any corrosion on those after a few months of use.

I will definitely keep an eye out for it, thanks. I dismantle and clean my atomizers regularly so if I see any discolouration I will stop using them in those places. I guess internal positive pins/paths will always be fine as long as they don't touch the coil itself.

 

[TheBloke]

Number 2 solved my cutting wire problems. I filled all four holes in my mutation x with silver wire and no more cutting problems

Hmm yes silver would be even better Or copper. I wish they made screws out of either. There are a few copper screws but not in any useful sizes that I've seen - well except copper plated. I ordered some copper plated steel just to see but I don't expect much. Copper plated brass might be OK but again not available in many useful sizes.

So you just cut off little bits of wire and dropped it in? And that formed a firm enough base?

I suppose it might be quite easy with copper. I could just use a fairly thick gauge stranded wire, and jam that down there. I could even tin the tip to make it flat and strong! Might be going a bit far

Well my brass screws are working OK in the Ubertoot for now. Maybe in the next atty

 

[vakaion]

Hmmmm...I have a bunch of metric s/s machine screws, guess I'll fish them out tomorrow and see if any fit my Toots and block the valleys inside the posts. Nice tip!

 

[druckle]

Thanks. Yeah I am doing both things, where it is possible. With 1 I tried Dremelling but found it took a while (maybe I'm using the wrong attachment, I never know quite which thing is for what in my $7 knock-off Dremel kit), so instead I hold the screw tight in a vice and then use a hacksaw to cut off the tip. This creates a perfectly smooth surface with a minimum of work.

2 is particularly annoying me in a recently purchased Ubertoot UTA v2 clone, which has hollow posts. But fortunately it also has those posts held in place with M2.5 screws underneath from the base. So I have ordered some longer brass M2.5s and I am hoping to cut the exact right screw length such that I can screw in a longer screw and thus fill the hole to exactly the level of the screw hole.

That Ubertoot has been far the worst wire chopper of recent times, but I do sometimes still have issues even in atomizers that don't match 1 or 2, even authentics such as my Aqua SE which has chunky flat-bottomed screws with the posts straight onto the deck. Ditto UD Goliath v2 and Goblin Mini, though actually the latter I seem to remember has been a bit better than average.

I suppose it's because Titanim is heavily annealed that makes it fairly weak/brittle. But I'm moving more and more to under-screw-head atomizers so it's not bothering me so much any more.

I've heard of people using a drill to "work harden" the wire - just by holding it and twisting it I think - I wonder if that has any benefit? Then again maybe it counteracts the annealing, making it more springy again?

Yes....work hardening is the opposite of annealing. If you twist the wire with a drill it is going to become very springy again. I find titanium to be less subject to the screw/wire cutting issue than Ni 200 but I think the real solution is to fill the bottom of the holes. That can be some soft wire or even a short grub screw screwed into the post so that the top of the screw is at the level of the bottom of the hole that the coil leg goes through.

Another solution I've used with Ni 200 is to double back a bit of wire at the end of the coil leg and twist it a bit to double the thickness of the wire where it goes into the holes in the posts. This almost always works but takes a little bit of fiddling with each coil change. This works with titanium too although it's a little more problematic with thicker titanium wire because of the higher strength of Ti.


Duane

 

[TheBloke]

Hmmmm...I have a bunch of metric s/s machine screws, guess I'll fish them out tomorrow and see if any fit my Toots and block the valleys inside the posts. Nice tip!

M2.5 is what you want, and you already have two in there - unscrew the base and you'll find two brass screws which screw into the underside of the posts. They're not long enough for what we need, but you could use one to compare the size of other M screws. Or just remove them and try screwing each screw in, of course.

Once I've finished my fix I'll post it to the Ubertoot v2 Clone thread. I've done one post already and confirmed 26G is being captured without breaking.