To all my ecf brothers and sisters.....please read.

[Levitas]

When someone bans something without knowing what it is, what would you say the chances are of them easily and objectively reversing that ban?

Starbucks is a laboratory now? Dude it is a COFFEE shop!

Fine..... just read this thread when you get a chance:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...s-open-government-advocacy-casaa-members.html

Read through carefully but pay special attention to page 4 where you will see a post from JustJulie that clearly proves all they want to do is BAN BAN BAN and openly admit they have no evidence to support their position.

Okay, I've read it. Yes, I agree, Julie makes a great point! I don't want anyone to think that I am saying that e-cigs should be banned, because I am not. To say so is not to of read all of my posts. All I want is what everyone else wants, viable, solid, and truthful information backed up by consistent experiementation and studies. I am not saying vaping is dangerous, nor am I saying that it is safe. I know it's safer than smoking cigz, but that's not the point. I want to know, full well, all of the possible goods along with the bads of vaping, in all spectrums. Personal use, 2nd hand vapor inhalation, and I want to see repeat results showing similar findings, no matter if it's good or not.

This is asking a great deal, but it is exactly what vaping needs in order to rise above the pseudo-correlations between vaping and smoking. No doubt this will take years and years of study to accomplish, but it's more than worth it. All I have been saying since the beginning was, without years of the said research being complete and steady, I don't think we should be upset if an establishment wishes to ban the use of an electronic cigarette. Otherwise, regardless of the short-term research, it's a liability on the company and those who frequent the place. Now, outside, vape away! In your home, or anywhere that it's accepted, MAKE IT RAIN with clouds of vapor. I don't agree with banning the use of the electronic cigarette, but I will respect any establishments wishes to not vape in their building and I think we all should. But, that's just my opinion.

 

[WAC_Vet]

There have been people who have had family members have breathing difficulties around their ecig vapor. Not a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but there aren't a whole lot of vapers ballsy enough to post any problems, either.

Some of the problems are psychosomatic, as many of us know of, or personally have seen people (including family members) who start coughing, or have an asthma attack as soon as they see someone pull out a cigaratte (not even lit!).

Some people may actually have a reaction to what little chemical is in the vapor, but since the vapor dissipates rapidly, I would venture to say it would have to be in a small enclosed area for a reaction.

One of my Grandson's has respiratory problems, yet he has no problem with my vapor. I have COPD, yet the vapor doesn't bother me in the lest little bit. This does not mean that there aren't those that could be affected by the vapor of a PV, or home vaporizer, or perfume, etc. My own daughter starts sneezing, and gets stuffy, when someone wearing certain perfumes. I get sick if I smell liver cooking!

I just wonder if the same difficulties occur, when the person who experiences them, doesn't know a PV is being used near them? Does it only happen in an enclosed area? Does it occur only while the PV is being used, or does it happen a period of time after the PV was used? Many questions have to be answered to see if it is the vapor, that is causing a problem.

 

[WAC_Vet]

How can we "rise above the pseudo-correlations between vaping and smoking" if we keep calling our vaporizers "ecigs"? I vape a personal vaporizer. I do not "smoke an ecig".

 

[Levitas]

How can we "rise above the pseudo-correlations between vaping and smoking" if we keep calling our vaporizers "ecigs"? I vape a personal vaporizer. I do not "smoke an ecig".

Welcome to the Electronic Cigarette Forums For the sake of the conversation, I wasn't really trying to keep it technical.

A name is one thing, years of consistent, and concrete studies disproving any harmful correlation between the two, well, that is the ticket.

Plus, I don't smoke on an e-cig, I vape on my MonkeyBoxx, which is an electronic cigarette A dispenser of nicotine for my addictive pleasures, both physiological and psychological.

 

[WyattDerp]

I aerate a PV, nuff said.

 

[throatkick]

Okay, I've read it. Yes, I agree, Julie makes a great point! I don't want anyone to think that I am saying that e-cigs should be banned, because I am not. To say so is not to of read all of my posts. All I want is what everyone else wants, viable, solid, and truthful information backed up by consistent experiementation and studies. I am not saying vaping is dangerous, nor am I saying that it is safe. I know it's safer than smoking cigz, but that's not the point. I want to know, full well, all of the possible goods along with the bads of vaping, in all spectrums. Personal use, 2nd hand vapor inhalation, and I want to see repeat results showing similar findings, no matter if it's good or not.

This is asking a great deal, but it is exactly what vaping needs in order to rise above the pseudo-correlations between vaping and smoking. No doubt this will take years and years of study to accomplish, but it's more than worth it. All I have been saying since the beginning was, without years of the said research being complete and steady, I don't think we should be upset if an establishment wishes to ban the use of an electronic cigarette. Otherwise, regardless of the short-term research, it's a liability on the company and those who frequent the place. Now, outside, vape away! In your home, or anywhere that it's accepted, MAKE IT RAIN with clouds of vapor. I don't agree with banning the use of the electronic cigarette, but I will respect any establishments wishes to not vape in their building and I think we all should. But, that's just my opinion.

ok. cool.

What about large office buildings with windows that do not open? Is their AC system perfectly serviced to ensure pristine air quality free of dust, bacteria, viruses and various pathogens? What about all the superbugs people are contracting from hospitals? People are almost dying from MRSA etc. they get in hospitals and someone vaping in the bathroom is the big problem?

While I am 100% in agreement with you concerning the studies required etc. I have questions concerning the motivation and honesty of those studies. It wouldn't be the first time findings were skewed in these battles for public opinion. You already saw proof of this disposition in the link above. The issue is how easily "the public" have allowed their opinion to be swayed and by whom.

Starbucks is a large, high-profile establishment. As such, many have attached a cult-like "WOW" to it. Therefore, they can shape public opinion to varying degrees.

All the best!

 

[SimpleSins]

Some of the problems are psychosomatic, as many of us know of, or personally have seen people (including family members) who start coughing, or have an asthma attack as soon as they see someone pull out a cigaratte (not even lit!).

Some people may actually have a reaction to what little chemical is in the vapor, but since the vapor dissipates rapidly, I would venture to say it would have to be in a small enclosed area for a reaction.

One of my Grandson's has respiratory problems, yet he has no problem with my vapor. I have COPD, yet the vapor doesn't bother me in the lest little bit. This does not mean that there aren't those that could be affected by the vapor of a PV, or home vaporizer, or perfume, etc. My own daughter starts sneezing, and gets stuffy, when someone wearing certain perfumes. I get sick if I smell liver cooking!

I just wonder if the same difficulties occur, when the person who experiences them, doesn't know a PV is being used near them? Does it only happen in an enclosed area? Does it occur only while the PV is being used, or does it happen a period of time after the PV was used? Many questions have to be answered to see if it is the vapor, that is causing a problem.

How old was your daughter when she started having psychosomatic reactions to perfumes? Some of the people who have reported respiratory problems in their children had kids that were too young to really be able to talk themselves into the respiratory problems, and they subsequently cleared up when vaping was done well away from them. While it is great that you have had no problems, I believe that there are some people that are the 'canary in the coalmine' whose respiratory issues are an alert that something in there is not particularly good for the lungs.

If I recall, ecigs didn't make it over here until 2006-2007, so I don't think we can say with 5 years of very limited use, with only recently a larger influx of users, that they are safer or really even that they're safer. It could be that those that have respiratory and other symptoms as a result of it are something of an early warning system and a harbinger of what's to come for those a sturdier anatomy able to ward off the effects longer.

But, geez, even aspirin and Tylenol admit that there are hazards to them. To try to gloss over the potential danger of ecigs does not do anything but make the community look like rabid fanatics rather than advocates for a device that should be properly researched as it has the potential to help millions if it can be done safely.

 

[throatkick]

But, geez, even aspirin and Tylenol admit that there are hazards to them. To try to gloss over the potential danger of ecigs does not do anything but make the community look like rabid fanatics rather than advocates for a device that should be properly researched as it has the potential to help millions if it can be done safely.

Absolutely!

Is it too much to ask that the studies be conducted in an open, fair, and 100% objective fashion?

 

[WAC_Vet]

You mistook what I wrote... I said SOME, not all, as this happens with many things. I've personally witnessed people start coughing, or have an asthma attack when I simply took out a cigarette, or had a cigarette in one hand and a lighter in the other! Prior to my Father's passing, while at the hospital, I only took out my cigarette pack, and a woman started coughing. I put the pack away, she stopped. I took it back out, and she started coughing. I've had people do that when they saw a cigarette, but that was the only one I've seen that did it when seeing just a cigarette pack.

As for the "canary in the coalmine", I posted in one of these threads that my Congo African Gray has had no problems around my vapor, and I've had him in my bedroom with me while I'm vaping.

Were these children in a closed area while the vaping was going on? As I posted, "Some people may actually have a reaction to what little chemical is in the vapor, but since the vapor dissipates rapidly, I would venture to say it would have to be in a small enclosed area for a reaction". The Grandson I mentioned is 4 years old, and has respiratory problems. He apparently is not sensitive to anything in my vapor, but someone else may be. That is why I used my daughter's reaction to certain perfumes, a reaction I don't have. I get sick at the smell of liver cooking, while others do not.

PG is not toxic, but can be an irritant for some people. As for the nicotine, 98% is absorbed by the person vaping. The study from New Zealand gives ppm what is in the vapor http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf It would be foolish to say no one could have a reaction to the vapor, just as it would be foolish to say no one could be allergic to water (Aquagenic pruritis), but the person would have to be either in an enclosed area, or directly in the path of the vapor, as it dissipates rapidly.

 

[Levitas]

ok. cool.

What about large office buildings with windows that do not open? Is their AC system perfectly serviced to ensure pristine air quality free of dust, bacteria, viruses and various pathogens? What about all the superbugs people are contracting from hospitals? People are almost dying from MRSA etc. they get in hospitals and someone vaping in the bathroom is the big problem?

While I am 100% in agreement with you concerning the studies required etc. I have questions concerning the motivation and honesty of those studies. It wouldn't be the first time findings were skewed in these battles for public opinion. You already saw proof of this disposition in the link above. The issue is how easily "the public" have allowed their opinion to be swayed and by whom.

Starbucks is a large, high-profile establishment. As such, many have attached a cult-like "WOW" to it. Therefore, they can shape public opinion to varying degrees.

All the best!

See, we're not talking about a/c vents or superbugs in hospitals, we're talking about vaping. There is no point of bringing the other stuff into the conversation other than to prove that there are dangers in our lives and we just have to live them. Which is not the point. I believe you do understand where I am coming from though, I thank you for being rational and understanding.

I agree. It works both ways. Ruyan studies, FDA studies, etc. That's why we need consistent studies for years and eventually, we'll see a consistent and steady result. After so many times, we will have a definitive answer to how safe exactly inhaling e-liquid vapor is, and that is what is important. More important, I think, than preserving the image of vaping. Starbucks is merely one company, no matter how large or how much of a cult-following they have, even some of those cult followers have mind of their own. Once enough research has been done, and the solid, factual results are in, people with reason and sense will wake up and see the truth, no matter how bad or good it is.

I think, that stating that Starbucks banning use of PV'S will create a successful message to the general population that vaping is bad is almost like saying that the general population is too stupid to think for theirselves. If someone doesn't care about vaping because they have never smoked nor were they ever interested in it, at the very least, they might do a little research on the safety issues of being exposed to the vapor. If not, that's where the years of concrete evidence comes in, to set the facts straight. This doesn't mean that it isn't important to inform people of what we know now (as I am sure some of you will come to believe that this is what I am saying...), but it also doesn't mean that we are given a born-given right to use a pv in public places, because we are not. If it turns out that we are able to vape in places, not just smoking areas, indoors, excellent. If not, is it really the end of the world? Or more realistically, the end of vaping? I don't think so.

 

[WAC_Vet]

Levitas, I agree that many more studies need to be done. We need financially "disinterested" parties to conduct the studies.

 

[Sandrita]

At the end of the day it is down to the owner. It shouldn't be taken personally what the owner of any establishment wants and does want on their premises.

 

[Coil]

At the end of the day it is down to the owner. It shouldn't be taken personally what the owner of any establishment wants and does want on their premises.

True. If the owner of the establishment says no then I'm not going to make a huge scene. It's going to take some time for society to accept the fact that Vaping IS NOT smoking. I won't treat Vaping like smoking 100% in public but there's a few things i won't do.

One is Vape while people are eating. I personally don't want to offend anybody who's trying to have a nice lunch/ dinner. It's not a matter of ignorance on their part but a natural instinct to react like... "Who the heck is smoking" if they see it. Some people are allergic to cigs and it's not their fault I want vape or in their eye's "smoke" while they're paying good $ to eat inside somewhere.

Even when I smoked analogs daily I would watch out for kids, pregnant women, elderly etc... It's just a respect thing IMO. I believe we shouldn't be giving off the I don't give a SH*.... attitude ya know. Outdoors though I vape EVERYWHERE! Plus it gives me something to talk about with analog smokers. They're always interested by it and you might just be able to help them kick the curse!

 

[MadmanMacguyver]

b b but we are too stupid to think for ourselves... just look at todays legislation...they tell us what light bulbs to buy...(oh thats right they are looking at reversing that) what oil to cook our foods in...what we can and cannot put in our bodies...OUR BODIES!!!

uhh wake up people...the general consensus of the ruling class...and YES it is a ruling class you don't very often see a regular Joe making any moderate to high point of office(there should be maybe they wouldn't have written so many checks of our money to other countries)...

and a very important point I have seen posted a few times in this thread is Starbucks has a big following...Their opinion is followed to some extent...


I am sorry if some consider this post Inflammatory but WE NEED to face the truth...the war is NOT over...We have won a few battles but all those could be overturned tomorrow...Complacency is our worst enemy...WE MUST NOT GIVE UP!!!

or they have won...

/Rant off

I am an simple man (brilliant but simple)with simple needs but one need does happen to still be keeping some level of nic in my system lest I lose my cool...and the fact is these do not harm anyone else...and if a mild flavor is chosen causes no discernible scent beyond 2-3 feet of me...so who am I harming if I take a vape every once in a while...noone...

 

[VapingRulz]

You still mock me? Don't you understand? I do not care what you think of me?

Why do you insist on personalizing this discussion? That's the mark of an amateur.

Yes, I understand it will take a LONG time to figure out the long term repercussions, if any, that exist. It's not absurd, not at all. When it comes to the safety of a human life, nothing is absurd. Perfume? What does that have to do with anything? You sound like a lobbyist. Avoiding the subject at hand by using examples of other products that have no place in this conversation.

You are of course missing the point, perhaps deliberately. If we could only use products that were proven to be 100% safe we'd all be walking around - not driving or using public transportation, in the nude, shampooing without shampoo, not using deodorant, drinking only distilled water, and eating very little. That's just for starters.

We do not live in a society where ANYTHING is 100% safe, yet you want to use that as a benchmark for vaping! That's not going to fly.

 

[kumquat]

The truth is that most lung and oral cancers are caused by HPV (look it up) and the data on second hand smoke is skewered to please political interests. The smoking bans in effect are idiotic, at best, especially in towns like NYC and LA with our air pollution problems. I have yet to be faced with explaining vaping to someone hostile in a non-smoking environment and, frankly, have such a short fuse right now that I'd likely avoid having to have that conversation. But for those who are feeling a little more easy going than I right now, I say push those boundaries and educate wherever and whenever you can.

 

[kumquat]

....Tylenol admit that there are hazards to them.

An aside, but Tylenol is just about the worst thing you can possibly take if you have joint/tendon pain as it depletes glutathione.

 

[Linden]

I don't think a long term study on the safety of PV's is even possible. Almost all users were long term smokers who will continue to suffer from the effects of smoking for the remainder of their lives. It *may* be possible if a control group of only smokers were found but even that would be flawed.

 

[John Phoenix]

Wal-mart banns its employees from using e-gigs unless they are out getting buggys or are on a break, and then they have to do it in the designated smoking area. I vape in wal-mart all the time not trying to hide it and it seems as if no one cares.. I do it at the check out.. in front of the customer service desk, everywhere. I think some of them know what it is and don't care as long as it's not real cigarettes. I have actually been told that by managers in another grocery store.

My point is, people see it. they ask me about it. I tell them and help save their lives. If a place has a ban and it's enforced, that's one thing, but if they don't have a ban or it's not enforced, I'm gonna vape loudly and proudly - this is pretty much everywhere.

I encourage everyone to vape in public. Not doing so and showing people something that can save their lives is selfish and wrong imo.

 

[Levitas]

Why do you insist on personalizing this discussion? That's the mark of an amateur.

Why do you care? The comment wasn't directed towards you. Do you feel that wv cannot handle himself in the conversation? Or is it your wish to have a dramatic battle of the text? See, the thing with you is, you're not really trying to contribute, you're trying to team up and start a clique of sorts. The only opinion correct in this discussion is yours or those similar to yours. There is no grey for Mr.Rulz, only the black and white that you wish to see. It's either against or for vaping in your eyes and that doesn't fly for most normal folk.

You are of course missing the point, perhaps deliberately. If we could only use products that were proven to be 100% safe we'd all be walking around - not driving or using public transportation, in the nude, shampooing without shampoo, not using deodorant, drinking only distilled water, and eating very little. That's just for starters.

We do not live in a society where ANYTHING is 100% safe, yet you want to use that as a benchmark for vaping! That's not going to fly.

No sir, you are missing the point. You keep telling me, that I am asking the wrong questions, that I purposely trying to avoid the "point" but clearly, you're not even reading my posts. I don't think you even read the entire conversation and decided to respond without doing so.

You're just another advocate for vaping with no sense to guide you, you're guided by the carrot on a stick, so to speak. You and anyone else want to keep comparing vaping and other dangers with each other, but that is not the point. This conversation is not about other dangers in life, it is only about vaping. Why are you, among others, avoiding that crucial point? It doesn't make you look smart, saying that there are all types of dangers in the world, why worry about vaping... no sir, it does not. It makes you look overzealous and unreasonable.

I wish to know full well all of the effects of vaping on myself and others through consistent long term exposure. I don't wish to read one or two studies, I want years and years of information that share similar results. With this, vaping can be put into the public view with little to no doubt on how safe it actually is, or is not. To believe I am against vaping because I wish to have this information before I choose to vape or endorse vaping in public occupied buildings, well, I honestly do not know why I even have to explain myself here. I thought this was an open-minded community that allowed different viewpoints and opinions. Fortunately, there are only a few of those who wish to supress any opinion that isn't there own. Fair enough, I can ignore you well enough.