To all my ecf brothers and sisters.....please read.

[VapingRulz]

O'Douls most certainly is beer, it just has very little alcohol content.

Ok, then substitute "Nada-Daquiries" or "Nada-Ritas." Any non-alcoholic beverage that is intended to look and taste like its alcohol-based equivalent.

Simulated drinking is exactly the same as simulated smoking, unless your contention is that 0 nic juice isn't really vaping, and IF a recovering alcoholic was using it as "Alcohol Replacement Therapy", just as many of us are using a PV as NRT than Levitas' point is well made if a bit exagerated.

We're talking about "Carcinogen Replacement Therapy" here. That is after all why the non-smoking laws exist. There is no law against nicotine as I'm sure you are aware. It's sold over the counter in every corner drugstore in the form of cigarettes, cigars, snuff, nicotine patches and gum.

I'm not sure I get your point. You're saying that because it looks like someone is drinking alcohol, then s/he must be doing so? Following that line of reasoning, a former smoker who picks up a pv and vapes... is smoking?

Once again, there is no smoke without fire. That's a fact. Appearances and supposition are no substitute for facts.

 

[VapingRulz]

So, it is like smoking, but the problem is that we have vapers who still think they are smokers?

Yes, we certainly do have non-smoking vapers who nonetheless view themselves as smokers - or hadn't you noticed?

 

[Randyrtx]

It bugs me when people compare smoking to other drug abuse, including alcohol. With those, the drug itself is the harmful element, not the delivery method or the ritual surrounding it.

With smoking, it's the delivery method (the smoke and ritual) we seek as much as the drug nicotine, and that is the harmful element, not the drug itself.

vaping eliminates the harmful element of the smoke and ritual, while (optionally) providing the drug. It doesn't "emulate" smoking, it replaces it.

 

[Levitas]

Yes, we certainly do have non-smoking vapers who nonetheless view themselves as smokers - or hadn't you noticed?

No, I hadn't I am aware of non-smokers who have tried or continue to use a pv, but I was not aware that they labeled themselves as a smoker.

It bugs me when people compare smoking to other drug abuse, including alcohol. With those, the drug itself is the harmful element, not the delivery method or the ritual surrounding it.

Agreed! Dear God, I agree +1,000,000 times!

 

[VapingRulz]

The reason why anti-smoking legislation was successful was NOT-NOT-NOT because cigarette smoking is rude, smelly, or unpleasant. It was/is strictly because of the carcinogens and the risks to non-smokers being forced to breathe in second-hand smoke... and they were able to prove it. (Whether you believe the studies or not is another matter; I suspect that they were rigged.) At any rate, that was the basis in law.

People seem to be confusing common courtesy and legal matters, which is muddying the waters considerably. The antis are probably delighted.

 

[VapingRulz]

It bugs me when people compare smoking to other drug abuse, including alcohol. With those, the drug itself is the harmful element, not the delivery method or the ritual surrounding it.

With smoking, it's the delivery method (the smoke and ritual) we seek as much as the drug nicotine, and that is the harmful element, not the drug itself.

Vaping eliminates the harmful element of the smoke and ritual, while (optionally) providing the drug. It doesn't "emulate" smoking, it replaces it.

That's an excellent point!

 

[oldsoldier]

The real point is there is NO LAW that prevents you from using your PV anywhere!!

Actually there are indeed laws on the books that prevent you from using your PV in specific places/locations/jurisdictions. Even if there is not a law preventing you from using your PV is a specific place, the rights of the property owner trump your "right" to use your PV.

This is why ECF does not allow vendors that make the "smoking everywhere" claim to become registered vendors on this site.

 

[APD99]

Ok, then substitute "Nada-Daquiries" or "Nada-Ritas." Any non-alcoholic beverage that is intended to look and taste like its alcohol-based equivalent.

And what exactly do you think an electronic cigarete/e-cig/PV is? It's an electronic device that is intended to look and taste like its carcinogenic equivelant.

We're talking about "Carcinogen Replacement Therapy" here. That is after all why the non-smoking laws exist. There is no law against nicotine as I'm sure you are aware. It's sold over the counter in every corner drugstore in the form of cigarettes, cigars, snuff, nicotine patches and gum.

And the analogy YOU provided twice now with regards to alcohol has only reinforced the link. We are swapping e-cigs for real ones just as your theoretical alcoholic has swapped nada-ritas for the alcoholic versions.

I'm not sure I get your point. You're saying that because it looks like someone is drinking alcohol, then s/he must be doing so? Following that line of reasoning, a former smoker who picks up a pv and vapes... is smoking?

Yes. Because your future as a public vaper, and perhaps a vaper at all is directly tied to the court of public opinion and in the current public view you are smoking.

Once again, there is no smoke without fire. That's a fact. Appearances and supposition are no substitute for facts.

I agree...IF we are talking about the physical act of smoking than yes, scientifically you are correct, there is no smoke. But what we are talking about here is not the physical realities of smoking OR vaping. We are talking about the public view, the majority view, the only view that should matter to you if you ever expect any form of legitimacy. You might as well bring a baseball bat and bash in the head of a Starbucks manager because you can't vape there, because in the eyes of the people who will eventually make the decision for you regardless of whether you want them to or not, the scene you cause by insisting that you have some magical "right" to vape away wherever you are is doing MORE damage than that. At least if you beat the guy to death there's a chance nobody will remember the PV.

 

[Vapor Pete]

I've been an advocate of "Dont vape where you couldnt smoke" since joining the ECF two years ago. I caught alot of grief in these parts from people who think vaping is ok to do where ever, when ever. I get that. We are NOT smoking.

I have vaped in one of my local bars, and was asked by the bar tender to stop. I did the whole "take the thing apart, show her it wasnt a cigarette, screwed back on the carto" etc etc. She still said I couldnt do it. She reasoned that if she allowed me to vape, other patrons would start asking her why they couldnt smoke. And I understand. At no point did I think of exiting the bar with my middle finger up saying I'd never return. If I cant get by without vaping... I use the restroom. Gotta use it anyway

I saw folks, wv2win specifically, saying that "perception is everything". And he's right. After trying to explain that you're vaping and not smoking... you get up and walk out saying you'll never return, the perception is, "look at that jerk with the e-cig. He left because he couldnt do what he wanted." That may not be the perception 100% of the time, but if you explain the e-cig, and then respect the request, you've put the word out and not made a bad impression.

Having said that, I think the only place I have put up a "fight to vape" is at concerts.

This is just my .02, and I will mention again that I get both view points. I just choose not to be "that guy".

 

[Levitas]

The reason why anti-smoking legislation was successful was NOT-NOT-NOT because cigarette smoking is rude, smelly, or unpleasant. It was/is strictly because of the carcinogens and the risks to non-smokers being forced to breathe in second-hand smoke... and they were able to prove it. (Whether you believe the studies or not is another matter; I suspect that they were rigged.) At any rate, that was the basis in law.

People seem to be confusing common courtesy and legal matters, which is muddying the waters considerably. The antis are probably delighted.

Regardless of their reasoning of banning in their establishment, and let us pretend, just for fun, that it never was banned from Starbucks. Let's say that the world knows that vaping is safe enough to be used around people and no one is ignorant to any of these notions. Would you still believe that it is right for us to be able to cloud up an establishment with vapor, when some people, no matter how risky it is or isn't, just do not want to be around it? How is it in our right to subject anyone else to recycled vapor regardless of health risks or not?

I know, that isn't the point, right? The point is, that this is a huge set-back for our cause, which is public acceptance? I don't know about you guys, but my personal cause was to quit smoking and guess what, I did. I don't feel the need to use my device inside a store, or a Starbucks or anywhere else aside of the comforts of my own personal property or under God's open skies. Why does it really matter if you cannot vape anywhere in the world?

Oh, because we cannot vape everywhere, regardless of the actual reasoning, MUST mean that vaping is ultimately linked to the idea of smoking and will receive all of the negative stereo-types linked to smoking, right? Well, what then do we need to do to disperse those fears? I have asked you already once, and I will ask again. What would YOU do in light of this current situation. Obviously some believe that my answer is unattainable or unreasonable, so, I am asking what YOU would do.

 

[APD99]

What would YOU do in light of this current situation. Obviously some believe that my answer is unattainable or unreasonable, so, I am asking what YOU would do.

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day
Teach a man to fish, he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day
Beat a man with a fish, and he will tell everybody that some with one of those e-cigs beat him with a fish because he was asked not to use it in the boat.

Support any place that allows PV use, don't shop where PV's are not allowed, and for gods sake get real. You didn't light up in the produce section of the supermarket, so you have no need to vape there unless you're just trying to be a jerk.

 

[WAC_Vet]

The reason smoking was refrained from in many places years ago, was because of the ash, a place to put out the cigarette, and disposal of the cigarette ..... If it was a small grocery store, where people could throw out their cigarette butts, people smoked there. I remember the little travel ashtrays that many women carried around. The corner pharmacy, when I was a kid, always had people in there smoking! You were even allowed to smoke in the hospital, as long as you had an ashtray. Many places even had the old floor ashtrays. You smoked at restaurants, the theather, supermarkets, gas stations, hospitals, airplanes, even Doctor's offices (heck my family Doctor was a smoker!). OMG, it's official... I'm old.

 

[Iffy]

Having said that, I think the only place I have put up a "fight to vape" is at concerts.

Was vaping banned there?

 

[wv2win]

I've been an advocate of "Dont vape where you couldnt smoke" since joining the ECF two years ago. I caught alot of grief in these parts from people who think vaping is ok to do where ever, when ever. I get that. We are NOT smoking.

I have vaped in one of my local bars, and was asked by the bar tender to stop. I did the whole "take the thing apart, show her it wasnt a cigarette, screwed back on the carto" etc etc. She still said I couldnt do it. She reasoned that if she allowed me to vape, other patrons would start asking her why they couldnt smoke. And I understand. At no point did I think of exiting the bar with my middle finger up saying I'd never return. If I cant get by without vaping... I use the restroom. Gotta use it anyway

I saw folks, wv2win specifically, saying that "perception is everything". And he's right. After trying to explain that you're vaping and not smoking... you get up and walk out saying you'll never return, the perception is, "look at that jerk with the e-cig. He left because he couldnt do what he wanted." That may not be the perception 100% of the time, but if you explain the e-cig, and then respect the request, you've put the word out and not made a bad impression.

Having said that, I think the only place I have put up a "fight to vape" is at concerts.

This is just my .02, and I will mention again that I get both view points. I just choose not to be "that guy".

You did much more than some on here would do to promote vaping in a responsible manner in your "bar" example. Those of us who believe that we need to vape openly but respectfully, are not suggesting any one do something different than what you did. But to do nothing, to send the message through words and actions that vaping is exactly the same as smoking is the problem. It's not about being disrespectful of others, it's about always acting in a manner that educates as well as being respectful of others. Acting like vaping is exactly the same as smoking is the problem.

The only time I had a resturant owner ask me not to vape was for the exact same reason that your bar owner gave. He was not against vaping, but he did not want to explain to 10 different people that I was vaping and not smoking and that they could not smoke inside. I could fully understand that and of course respected his request. I did put forth the idea that he might consider placing some signs up, when he thought it was the right time, that vaping was allowed but not smoking and he might garner some new customers. He told me if more of his regular smoking customers switched to vaping he would definitely do that. This is the type of foundation I believe we need to promote.

 

[KeysBum]

I myself just cannot advocate this whole "stealth vape" thinking .. hey, if it's against the rules, it's against the rules .. OK, so I sound like a wimp I know ..

Willie, you probably are a wimp. But most definately a sheep.

Summary of Constitutional Rights, Powers and Duties

I respectfully suggest that you read this because nowhere is it written or even suggested that anything not illegal is therefor legal. You do have certain personal rights, and so does the man/woman/child standing next to you. Also remember that majority rules and smokers are now a minority, and vapers are an even smaller minority.

Are you kidding me? Really! Give me one example of anything I can't legally do that isn't against the law. I spent my best years flying A-6 Intrudrers off the pointy end of big boats, In my mind trying to protect the freedoms that so many here seem willing to forfeit. What is it that they don't get?? "well, the rules are I have to get on the train to Auschwitz, I've got to abide by the rules." Some of us have to convince them somehow that if we don't push back at "rules" that are Arbitrary, capricious, and an affront to our right to personal liberty, those "rules" may become law

 

[WAC_Vet]

The saying goes.... "Freedom isn't free", and those of us who have served, this wonderful Country of ours, know that all too well.

Thank you for your service KeysBum, and welcome home brother!

 

[KeysBum]

Thank you.

 

[Levitas]

Willie, you probably are a wimp. But most definately a sheep.

Are you kidding me? Really! Give me one example of anything I can't legally do that is against the law. I spent my best years flying A-6 Intrudrers off the pointy end of big boats, In my mind trying to protect the freedoms that so many here seem willing to forfeit. What is it that they don't get?? "well, the rules are I have to get on the train to Auschwitz, I've got to abide by the rules." Some of us have to convince them somehow that if we don't push back at "rules" that are Arbitrary, capricious, and an affront to our right to personal liberty, those "rules" may become law

You seem to be quite passionate about this subject, but, being a complete extremist isn't going to solve anything. In fact, this type of attitude probably doesn't help anything at all... calling names? Really?

I personally find it VERY offensive that you would use an analogy like, "well, the rules are I have to get on the train to Auschwitz, I've got to abide by the rules." to not being being able to vape in public buildings. Those people had no choice because there was probably a gun barrel pointed directly in their face when they were told to board the train. Really man, this is just sad.

But, I hear you loud and clear. You feel that something needs to be done about this ban in Starbucks, right? What would you do? How do you believe we should go about preserving our 'freedom' and 'right' to vape in public indoor areas?

Also, how do you feel about others' rights? About those who do not wish to be around the vapor? Should they forfeit their right to enjoy coffee in an enviroment without vapor, or does that not matter?

 

[KeysBum]

You seem to be quite passionate about this subject, but, being a complete extremist isn't going to solve anything. In fact, this type of attitude probably doesn't help anything at all... calling names? Really?

I personally find it VERY offensive that you would use an analogy like, "well, the rules are I have to get on the train to Auschwitz, I've got to abide by the rules." to not being being able to vape in public buildings. Those people had no choice because there was probably a gun barrel pointed directly in their face when they were told to board the train. Really man, this is just sad.

But, I hear you loud and clear. You feel that something needs to be done about this ban in Starbucks, right? What would you do? How do you believe we should go about preserving our 'freedom' and 'right' to vape in public indoor areas?

Also, how do you feel about others' rights? About those who do not wish to be around the vapor? Should they forfeit their right to enjoy coffee in an enviroment without vapor, or does that not matter?

you are right, just get on the train, too many reasons not to.

 

[Levitas]

you are right, just get on the train, too many reasons not to.

What does that even mean? Why do you shy from answering my questions?

I am not against what you're for, I am merely attempting to look at the situation from ALL perspectives and not just of a vaper.