Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[Str8vision]

This looks great - out of interest, where do you get your ethanol from? Here in UK you need a license to get pure pharma grade ethanol. Would a high proof spirit (vodka) etc work instead for the inital stage?

Dan

I think it depends on how high the ethanol content is in the "alcohol" used, the higher the "proof" the better. If pure grain alcohol (PGA), isn't available then perhaps try a different high proof alcohol instead. However, the lower the proof the higher the water content which at some point of dilution would alter the extraction process. Vodka will have certain other impurities as well but I doubt they would make a significant difference, it's the water content that could become a problem. I actually prefer 190 proof PGA (5% water content), due to price, availability, ease of use and its high ethanol content. Fractional distillation could -easily- render a low proof Vodka into a -much- higher proof alcohol but no doubt doing so would be legally problematic.

I would simply use the best alcohol available and adjust the extraction temperatures/duration to counter for the higher water content. Worse case scenario you waste a shot or two of Vodka and half ounce of tobacco.

 

[Bagazo]

it's the water content that could become a problem.

Do you have any info to back this up?

Sorry but I have looked and I have yet to find anything that indicates that water = bad.

 

[Str8vision]

Do you have any info to back this up?

Sorry but I have looked and I have yet to find anything that indicates that water = bad.

I've been blending PGA, VG and PG with water to create blended extraction solvents for some time. Water doesn't = bad (often it = good), but its presence does change the dynamics (heat/duration), and flavor of any extraction. I like an 80/20 PG/water blend for 80 hour heated extractions as the water content pulls additional flavor notes, but, it also speeds the extraction process requiring less time, if you let it go too long it alters the flavor in a bad way. For a 12 hour heated ethanol (alcohol), extraction, excess water content (>15%), will significantly change the dynamics requiring temperature and duration adjustments but more importantly it "muddies" the flavor that ethanol alone pulls. The entire reason for performing a 12 hour heated ethanol extraction is to obtain the unique flavor it alone yields, changing the solvent will, without doubt, change the end results. However, as I stated, using ethanol with a higher water content (high proof Vodka), might work if you adjust the temperature and duration. My best "guess" would be to process at a higher temperature for a longer duration but I think you might lose the higher flavor notes when doing so, that's been my experience with heated PGA/water extractions anyway.

 

[Bagazo]

For a 12 hour heated ethanol (alcohol), extraction, excess water content (>15%), will significantly change the dynamics requiring temperature and duration adjustments but more importantly it "muddies" the flavor that ethanol alone pulls.

If someone has to jump through hoops to get high purity alcohol it might be easier just to ajust the extraction time.

From what I have read, ethanol is a more efficient solvent than water. It will dissolve pretty much everything water does and more. I think that what you might be getting is greater esterification.

I honestly don't think you are just extracting when you talk about days or weeks. I mean you drop a pinch, a chaw or take a bite of a plug of chewing tobacco and you are getting the flavor immediately. I really think what many are doing would be better described as aging on the leaf.

My best "guess" would be to process at a higher temperature for a longer duration but I think you might lose the higher flavor notes when doing so, that's been my experience with heated PGA/water extractions anyway.

Looking at the OP I can't see much room for higher temp unless you take into account the pressures created by the ethanol boiling.

 

[Str8vision]

If someone has to jump through hoops to get high purity alcohol it might be easier just to ajust the extraction time.

From what I have read, ethanol is a more efficient solvent than water. It will dissolve pretty much everything water does and more. I think that what you might be getting is greater esterification.

I honestly don't think you are just extracting when you talk about days or weeks. I mean you drop a pinch, a chaw or take a bite of a plug of chewing tobacco and you are getting the flavor immediately. I really think what many are doing would be better described as aging on the leaf.


Looking at the OP I can't see much room for higher temp unless you take into account the pressures created by the ethanol boiling.

If PGA isn't available using the best alcohol available "might" work with lengthening the duration and elevating the temperature of the process but the resulting flavor might be quite different. My experience has been that even slight changes to solvents and methods can have a noticeable effect on flavor.

While the boiling point of pure ethanol is 173F, 100 proof Vodka is only 50% ethanol and has enough water mixed in to elevate its boiling point to, I'd "guess" around 185 - 195F. Same effect as adding anti-freeze to water, it changes the water's boiling/freezing point. Add just 5% PG to PGA and see what happens to it's boiling point.

Chewing or smoking tobacco and vaping NET are - entirely - different things. The amount of tobacco a smoker or chewer will consume in a single day, when properly extracted, yields months worth of NET so I believe our methods of flavor extraction are by - orders of magnitude - more efficient than simply burning or chewing on it. I'll stick with what I've learned the past two years while collaborating with other avid extraction enthusiasts and what I know through having actually performed hundreds of extractions. The beauty of home extraction is you can do it "your" way or the way that bests suits your taste preference. Put whatever theories you may have to the test and start a thread describing the results so that other might try, that's the purpose of this sub forum.

 

[Bagazo]

If PGA isn't available using the best alcohol available "might" work with lengthening the duration and elevating the temperature of the process but the resulting flavor might be quite different. My experience has been that even slight changes to solvents and methods can have a noticeable effect on flavor.

Why in that direction? Why not less time and/or a lower temp?

While the boiling point of pure ethanol is 173F, 100 proof Vodka is only 50% ethanol and has enough water mixed in to elevate its boiling point to, I'd "guess" around 185 - 195F. Same effect as adding anti-freeze to water, it changes the water's boiling/freezing point. Add just 5% PG to PGA and see what happens to it's boiling point.

I'm not talking just BP. I'm talking pressure inside a glass container. Just reminding people that things do expand when heated.

Chewing or smoking tobacco and vaping NET are - entirely - different things. The amount of tobacco a smoker or chewer will consume in a single day, when properly extracted, yields months worth of NET so I believe our methods of flavor extraction are by - orders of magnitude - more efficient than simply burning or chewing on it. I'll stick with what I've learned the past two years while collaborating with other avid extraction enthusiasts and what I know through having actually performed hundreds of extractions. The beauty of home extraction is you can do it "your" way or the way that bests suits your taste preference. Put whatever theories you may have to the test and start a thread describing the results so that other might try, that's the purpose of this sub forum.

Started writing a wall of text but I will just say that the flavor that develops after days and weeks of tobacco sitting in solvent is not flavor being pulled from the tobacco. It works but it isn't some ultra efficient extraction. What you are experiencing is flavor development similar to what happens to wine, aged liquors and cheeses.

 

[Exchaner]

Pardon the silly question, but where do you get the alcohol for this process? Would Everclear 151 proof be a good choice?

 

[Str8vision]

Pardon the silly question, but where do you get the alcohol for this process? Would Everclear 151 proof be a good choice?

Everclear (and other companies), make 190 proof PGA that's 95% ethanol and 5% water. Ask for "190 proof pure grain alcohol" at your local liquor stores. 151 proof Everclear would be 75% ethanol and might work just fine but I don't know for certain as I've not tried using it for this method of tobacco extraction. If I were using a 75% ethanol 25% water blended solvent for this extraction I would experiment with processing the tobacco at 175F for 14 hours, evaluate the results and adjust from there.

 

[gt_1955]

'Evening Srt8vision Just completed the 12 hour ethanol extraction at between 68°C and 71°C (I used a temperature controlled Ultrasonic Cleaner for the heating process) and have strained it using a coffee filter and 5µm felt filter, and have just placed it in the freezer ready for the chill filtering process in 3 days or so.

But ... not before mixing a few drops up with PG and my nic, and am tooting on it as we speak (probably mixed to about 15%). I am impressed with the different and stronger flavour as opposed to my normal cold maceration steeps, however my taste buds aren't refined enough for me to distinguish between the notes that you speak of.

All I can say ATM is it tastes better than my previous efforts (which were actually quite good if feedback from my fellow steepers in Oz is anything to go by ). It's going to be damn hard waiting to complete the super-chilled filtering I can tell you.

Cheers mate

 

[Str8vision]

'Evening Srt8vision Just completed the 12 hour ethanol extraction at between 68°C and 71°C (I used a temperature controlled Ultrasonic Cleaner for the heating process) and have strained it using a coffee filter and 5µm felt filter, and have just placed it in the freezer ready for the chill filtering process in 3 days or so.

But ... not before mixing a few drops up with PG and my nic, and am tooting on it as we speak (probably mixed to about 15%). I am impressed with the different and stronger flavour as opposed to my normal cold maceration steeps, however my taste buds aren't refined enough for me to distinguish between the notes that you speak of.

All I can say ATM is it tastes better than my previous efforts (which were actually quite good if feedback from my fellow steepers in Oz is anything to go by ). It's going to be damn hard waiting to complete the super-chilled filtering I can tell you.

Cheers mate

That was my general impression the first time tasting NET made by this method, it was as good or better than much more complicated multistage extractions I had been performing. The flavor will further improve after the freezing cycle removes the oils, waxes and other undesirables from the extract at least that was my experience. Sutliff "Voodoo Queen" is a very difficult tobacco to extract but one of my favorite NET flavors when done right, so far this method produces the best extract of it I've tasted.

I believe extracting flavor from tobacco using hot ethanol as the solvent holds great promise. I'm impressed enough to experiment further in an effort to establish optimal temperature/duration parameters. It's Springtime in this neck of the woods and I'm going to be busy working on my house and property, I've several large projects planned so my extraction efforts may slow "a bit" until next Fall/Winter.

I'm envious of your "heated" ultrasonic cleaner, I debated getting one last year to use for mixing flavored NET. I hadn't really thought about other potential uses, like using its temp. controlled hot water bath for extractions. What's the temperature range and capacity? Would it hold a few half pint canning jars?

 

[gt_1955]

...

I'm envious of your "heated" ultrasonic cleaner, I debated getting one last year to use for mixing flavored NET. I hadn't really thought about other potential uses, like using its temp. controlled hot water bath for extractions. What's the temperature range and capacity? Would it hold a few half pint canning jars?

Mine has a 1.3L capacity, so would only be capable of 1x 1/2 pint (300ml) jar. It's not ideal for what "we" are trying to do, but for the purpose of of trying your method, it allowed me to strictly control the temperature. I have a much larger slow cooker, but the temperature control is vague to say the least, being "Low", "Medium" and "High" ... not very accurate when we are trying to control the temperature to a set range.

I bought it to do two things:
1. Clean atties (remove the oils used in manufacture);
2. Speed age my juices.

Which is does admirably ... but being relatively cheaply made, I wouldn't expect that it would last long being used as a heating source only

I'm sorry, but I can't tell you offhand the temperature range, I know the lower limit (ambient), but not the higher limit ... suffice to say it at least 72° C

I'll leave it at that for tonight (actually 1:40AM) and come back with more info after the cold filtering.

Cheers

 

[Bagazo]

Everclear (and other companies), make 190 proof PGA that's 95% ethanol and 5% water. Ask for "190 proof pure grain alcohol" at your local liquor stores.

Some places (also certain states in the US) have outlawed the sales of 190 proof PGA. My country does not allow anything over 100 proof to be sold for human consumption.

 

[gt_1955]

Some places (also certain states in the US) have outlawed the sales of 190 proof PGA. My country does not allow anything over 100 proof to be sold for human consumption.

Neither does mine now, but I still have ~100ml left over from when I could purchase it here.

Damn nanny states

 

[gt_1955]

The temperature upper limit for the UC is 80°C, and they warn not to use it continuously for more than an hour (but, that is due to the likelihood of damage to the transducer), how ever, for the purpose of trialling this method I was willing to operate it for longer on heat only. Long term extracting requires another solution

 

[gt_1955]

I just checked the extraction (after 12-ish hours in the freezer) and you can already see an accumulation of "junk" in the bottom of the jar, so I believe this will give a cleaner extract once fully processed. Feeling really positive about this method, thanks mate

 

[Str8vision]

The temperature upper limit for the UC is 80°C, and they warn not to use it continuously for more than an hour (but, that is due to the likelihood of damage to the transducer), how ever, for the purpose of trialling this method I was willing to operate it for longer on heat only. Long term extracting requires another solution

Guess I'll stick with using a crock pot, inexpensive, durable and surprisingly well suited for the task. Last one held up for two years through hundreds of extractions. Temperature control is a bit tricky, I've been using a candy thermometer and using the cooker's lid placement for fine adjustments. Works but is a little too involved/fiddly in my opinion. I have considered getting a PID controller, a decent one can be had for around $25 and would make temperature control easy/accurate.

 

[Bunnykiller]

I wonder if this could be inserted into the line supply of the crock pot???

Amazon.com : AC 110~120V Digital Temperature Controller Thermostat F : Renewable Energy Charge Controllers : Patio, Lawn & Garden

or this one....

http://www.amazon.com/Lerway-All-Pu..._sbs_lg_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=08ZRVX6X0QGDV0PXMJF6

 

[Dan Bean]

Ok, in case there's anyone else from UK trying to extract, I've found this PGA is the closest (food standard) high volume ethanol available, though looks like it's only available online- it's a 96% proof vodka used for cocktails and is a base ingredient for Polish vodka: it's called Polmospure Spirytus Rektyfikowany (Rectified Spirit). Anything else from UK chemists etc seems to contain bittering agents or toxic methyl alcohol (avoid). May give this a go next time I have £30 or so to spare!

 

[Str8vision]

Ok, in case there's anyone else from UK trying to extract, I've found this PGA is the closest (food standard) high volume ethanol available, though looks like it's only available online- it's a 96% proof vodka used for cocktails and is a base ingredient for Polish vodka: it's called Polmospure Spirytus Rektyfikowany (Rectified Spirit). Anything else from UK chemists etc seems to contain bittering agents or toxic methyl alcohol (avoid). May give this a go next time I have £30 or so to spare!

96% ethanol or 96 proof Vodka? If it's 96 proof that's around 49% ethanol and 51% water which would be a water dominant solvent from an extraction point of view.

 

[Str8vision]

I wonder if this could be inserted into the line supply of the crock pot???

Amazon.com : AC 110~120V Digital Temperature Controller Thermostat F : Renewable Energy Charge Controllers : Patio, Lawn & Garden

or this one....

http://www.amazon.com/Lerway-All-Pu..._sbs_lg_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=08ZRVX6X0QGDV0PXMJF6

As long as the controller's output relay can handle switching a ~5 amp load (my crock pot draws <4 amps), the controller's temperature range is adequate for your needs and the type of probe (sensor), it uses is available in a waterproof, heat resistant stainless steel (for hot liquid immersion).

I wouldn't use the first one you listed as it doesn't specify its temp range, output capacity, accuracy or probe type (probably NTC). The second one (Lerway), has a control range of -50C to +99C and its output relay can handle the average crock pot's power requirements. It uses an NTC type sensor which isn't optimal (I prefer K type sensors), but still OK. Between the two I'd choose the Lerway. I'd want to pick up a stainless waterproof heat resistant NTC sensor, perhaps like; AUDEW 10 pcs NTC 10k¡À1% 3470 Waterproof Temperature Sensors Temperature Transmitter - - Amazon.com

I bet the Lerway (or one like it), would work just fine. Ahhhh, carefree temperature controlled extractions, now if it only had a process on-off timer built in.