Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[Str8vision]

Ok, here's my planned reduction:

I'm going to take a small amount om my extract (10ml) and add 10 ml of PG, so now I have 20ml of a 50/50 PGA/PG solution. I was going to microwave it untill it reduces back to 10ml. Does anyone see any problems with this? Will i set my house on fire?

Reducing an ethanol based extract in a microwave oven might not be the best approach. Microwaves heat unevenly creating hotspots and it's near impossible to control the temperature when heating small volumes of liquid, you could go from 100F to 300F+ in a matter of seconds. With ethanol's low boiling point (<175F), a violent boil over is likely to occur. It is possible to scorch a tobacco extract (been there done that), doing so alters the flavor in a negative way. The best way to reduce an ethanol extract is to -gently- and uniformly heat it in a shallow wide mouth container between 110F - 150F. The shallower and wider the container, the faster it will evaporate off.

For reduction I use an electric oven set below 150F and place the extract in a small, rectangular, flat bottomed Pyrex container on the center shelf. Works great and is currently my preferred method for reduction, no moisture/humidity involved and once the extract reaches the set temperature it only takes minutes to achieve the targeted reduction.

I've also used a crock pot (set on medium and 1/3 full of hot water), and allowed the extract, contained in a small metal or glass bowl, to float in the hot water. I stopped using this method because it takes hours to achieve the targeted reduction and the humidity produced by the heated water was in close proximity to the hygroscopic extract/solvent. For long term storage/viability issues I try to keep the water content in my extracts to an absolute minimum. Not really an issue for those who would use the extract within a years time.

Open air room temperature evaporation also works but is a bit too slow for me, can take days depending on the container used. I don't like exposing extracts to open air for that length of time, when it comes to storage life oxidation is not your friend. Again, not really an issue for those who will use the extract within a years time.

 

[Mattdogg]

Thanks guys. Just considering it, that's why I asked. I'll take your words for it. Got my extract in the freezer.

 

[aceswired]

Where did I say it was TNT ......? Maybe "explode" wasn't the right word, but pg and vg are both flammable, not to mention pga. I have had wicks ignite on me while pulsating at a modest 10 watts - no pga involved.

Do what you like, but when people read your post, some automatically assume is safe to nuke their juice - just because they saw it on the ECF.

I never proposed microwaving anything. I wouldn't. But not because of nonsense like explosions. Because I don't believe it would be beneficial to the final product.

Please don't paint me as supporting nuking. I specifically said not to

 

[Exchaner]

Nonesense? Whatever dude, have an nice day.....

 

[Exchaner]

Years ago I had a habit of making tea by boiling the water inside the microwave instead of using the stove. Everything was working fine until one day the water burst with such force that it blew the oven's door wide open. Thinking it was a fluke, I continued using the MW until the incident happened a second time weeks later.

Someone with a technical background explained why this happens. The best I can explain it, it has to do with "super-heated" water getting trapped inside the liquid with no ability to evaporate by reaching the top. As a result, it suddenly bursts. In my book, that is called an explosion. Boiling with the stove does not create such a problem since convection circulates the water inside. Perhaps someone with a better background can explain what goes on here.

 

[aceswired]

Nonesense? Whatever dude, have an nice day.....

Yes, nonsense. The moonshine guys have used microwaving for speed maturing for a long time. Those guys know their ethanol. No explosions. Because a steady O2 supply is needed for ethanol to combust. It will burn but only at the speed it receives O2.

And thanks for the kind wishes.

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[Exchaner]

That is like saying people have been cooking food with microwave for years. So what? That has nothing to do with the subject. Ignition is not the only factor. It wasn't a factor in the above example with the water. You are shooting from the hip my man.

 

[aceswired]

Not sure I follow the logic that moonshine (ethanol) = food. But it seems important to you that it's all gonna explode. So warning to all. Nuking your PGA extracts will cause mushroom clouds! BEWARE!!!

Happy?

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[aceswired]

Now that Exchaner has what he needs ... for the others just getting into this: Don't nuke your extracts. Not because they'll explode (they won't, unless you're colossally stupid AND intensely unlucky). Because it won't do your flavor profile any favors.

Don't do it, but don't do it for the right reasons.

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[Exchaner]

Yes, I am happy this discussion is over. Wheew.

 

[Bagazo]

I see the discussion is over but I would just like to add that water superheating in a microwave happens because the water has no nucleation sites and is undisturbed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheating

Superheating is achieved by heating a homogeneous substance in a clean container, free of nucleation sites, while taking care not to disturb the liquid.

That would not be the case in nuking a tobacco extraction because they are not homogeneous. The molecules destined to form gunk on our coils would provide the nucleation sites that would prevent superheating.

 

[Exchaner]

Thanks, that is exactly how it was explained to me. As to nuking your juice - or pga - am I correct to assume that nuking should have no more ill effect on flavor than conventional heating does? The only difference being the hazardous aspects, and the fact that conventional heating distributes the heat more evenly - less hot spots.

 

[Bagazo]

I don't think that nuking in any fluid medium will cause hot spots because of the motion caused by boiling. In fact, on a stove, thick mixtures have to be constantly stirred to avoid burning while this does not happen in a microwave.

I think solids, like meats, are the only things prone to hot spots in a microwave.

 

[Exchaner]

Yes, but do you really want to heat your juice or pga to the boiling point? On a related point, I have tasted the same juice both cooked and uncooked (naturally steeped); to me they taste different, but I have sensitive buds. From what you have said so far, it seems nuking carries no more a hazard than heating in a conventional oven for example?

While I have your attention, I am curious how many degrees beyond boiling point does pga ignite? I am thinking the two temps are different. Once I did an experiment by heating vg in a tea spoon above the stove. It ignited a couple of seconds after the boiling point.

 

[Bagazo]

Yes, but do you really want to heat your juice or pga to the boiling point? On a related point, I have tasted the same juice both cooked and uncooked (naturally steeped); to me they taste different, but I have sensitive buds.

No I don't think you want to boil it but even before boiling there would be convection that would not allow hot spots.

From what you have said so far, it seems nuking carries no more a hazard than heating in a conventional oven stove for example?

Anything with open flames would be far more dangerous than nuking.

If it starts to boil it will spill over the top and down because it is heavier than air. If you are using a gas stove this would be very dangerous.

While I have your attention, I am curious how many degrees beyond boiling point does pga ignite? I am thinking the two temps are different. Once I did an experiment by heating vg in a tea spoon above the stove. It ignited a couple of seconds after the boiling point.

Auto-ignition for ethanol is 689ºF (365ºC).

Glycerine's temps are similar so, what happend was probably what I described above. Once the fumes spill over and reach an open flame it flashes back to the container.

 

[Exchaner]

Thanks Bagazo, you cleared up a lot of questions. Now I need a couple of months to adjust my thinking

I used to steep my juices inside an electric oven at 120 degrees for five hours - of course with the cap partially closed. Never had an incident, but now I am not sure it was such a great idea. The coil inside the oven gets red hot, and the temp does vary greatly from one spot to another in conventionals.

 

[aceswired]

To open flame - the characterization of "very dangerous" is overstated in the amounts dealt with here, unless you're in an exceptionally small, unventilated space. The liquid will burn in such a scenario. The danger would be the vapor. But in the amounts we deal in, you can't get the alcohol density in the air to make that "very dangerous"

If you're running a 15 gallon still, it's another matter. But we deal in ounces, not gallons.

With ounces, you might scald your stovetop. No mushroom clouds here.

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[Bagazo]

With ounces, you might scald your stovetop. No mushroom clouds here.

Not talking mushroom clouds. More like a flambé but, if it catches you off guard you might end up getting some burns.

 

[aceswired]

Not talking mushroom clouds. More like a flambé but, if it catches you off guard you might end up getting some burns.

Agreed. It's not to be taken lightly. But with care, it's more than manageable.



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[Bagazo]

Agreed. It's not to be taken lightly. But with care, it's more than manageable.

Sure, that is why I posted about it, so that people will be aware that it can happen and why.

Since we are dealing with small amounts, people might be tempted to place a glass container not made for direct heat over a flame. That would be a real no no even with water but a jar full of PG, VG or PGA would be even worse. A water bath would be a safer option.

A microwave would be even safer. Short bursts then measure with a thermometer or at least testing until things get a little too warm to the touch.