Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[aceswired]

I have also tried ISO and found the flavor not as robust as Everclear. Perhaps a combination of the two might work better. You will get the benefit of Everclear with the lower cost of ISO - a possible solution for those like myself who only have access to 151 proof Everclear. I plan to mix of 70% ISO with 30% Everclear. That will cut down the % of water inside the Everclear considerably.

Why do you think 30 percent h2o is bad? Water is a great solvent. The main drawback is mold, which is a non issue with 70 percent ethanol.

Not sure why adding iso to reduce water is a step forward. Personally, I'd vastly rather have the water.

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[Exchaner]

Why do you think 30 percent h2o is bad? Water is a great solvent. The main drawback is mold, which is a non issue with 70 percent ethanol.

Not sure why adding iso to reduce water is a step forward. Personally, I'd vastly rather have the water.

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Nothing wrong with water except it dissolves sugars in the tobacco more than alcohol does - might be a good thing if you vape on the sweeter side, but your coils will gunk up that much faster.

 

[aceswired]

Nothing wrong with water except it dissolves sugars in the tobacco more than alcohol does - might be a good thing if you vape on the sweeter side, but your coils will gunk up that much faster.

Do we know that water more effectively pulls and dissolves sugars from the leaf, in any kind of meaningful way? Because alcohol is pretty darned good at the exact same job. I'm skeptical that a 70/30 solvent extracts more sugars in a significant way to a 95/5 or even 100/0.

 

[Exchaner]

Do we know that water more effectively pulls and dissolves sugars from the leaf, in any kind of meaningful way? Because alcohol is pretty darned good at the exact same job. I'm skeptical that a 70/30 solvent extracts more sugars in a significant way to a 95/5 or even 100/0.

I'll have to look it up, but there is a post somewhere in this thread that answered that question with numbers. It turns out there is a substantial difference between water and alcohol in terms of sugar solubility. It remains to be seen whether 70/30 would make a large difference; only an experiment will tell.

Another factor is the lower cost of ISO. If you can achieve the same flavor with only 30% Everclear, the cost difference might be a factor. Again, only an experiment will tell.

 

[dannyv45]

http://www.amazon.com/Moda-Flame-Bio-Ethanol-Fireplace-Bottles/dp/B00GPU8Z9M/ref=pd_sim_201_7?ie=UTF8&dpID=51wlscbGXiL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=1M1QN5S3B3CN5DGEGM3S

Please, give me your thoughts on using this product for extracting tobacco.

Says in the description

• For child safety, bitterant is added as a human aversive. It's overwhelming bitter taste helps prevent accidental ingestion by children and small animals.

If you were to use it you would need to completely reduce out the alcohol and I'm not sure if that would get rid of the added bitterant. I've used isopropol alcohol and reduced out the alcohol but still it was not as good as pure grain alcohol. I still detected bitterant.

 

[Izan]

Says in the description

• For child safety, bitterant is added as a human aversive. It's overwhelming bitter taste helps prevent accidental ingestion by children and small animals.

If you were to use it you would need to completely reduce out the alcohol and I'm not sure if that would get rid of the added bitterant. I've used isopropol alcohol and reduced out the alcohol but still it was not as good as pure grain alcohol. I still detected bitterant.

I have NEVER discovered an effective way to remove the bitterant. Perhaps that is by design.

 

[salparadise13]

Whew, finally finished reading everything. I tried an extract as I was reading, and have a question. I extracted aged burley, burley, and dark fired from leafonly using 151 proof Everclear (strongest sold here). I did a 12 hour heat with the temp around 160 (+/- 2) in a crock pot w a temp control. I then filtered w an aeropress (used 3 filters) in to a 2 micron filter into a jar. Then the extracts went in to the freezer for a few days. After 2-3 days, I filtered again w the 2 micron filter while still in the freezer. The I cooked off about 50% of the alcohol, added PG, and tried to filter off a bit more alcohol. I got enough out that I don't taste the alcohol, and I tend to be sensitive to an alcohol taste. Anyway, my question is, what are NET.com and myvapejuice.com doing differently to where their flavors are much more distinct/refined? Mine remind me of a different NET vendor's juices that were good, but not as clear as the two above. What could I do to improve on my process to get mine closer to theirs?

 

[Izan]

Hi mate,
What quantities did you use? Grams of tobacco/ml of alcohol?
Was the tobacco whole leaf, course chopped, macerated?
(just curious, how long did the 2micron filter process take? Water thru a 25 micron filter only comes in slow drips at room temps for me.)

Off the top of my... I might think that NET vendors are using a longer extraction with more pure solvent and a heated vacuum chamber for 99.9% solvent reclaim.

I might have waited to add an PG until I had done my final purge.
How did you remove the 25% water (151 is 75% alcohol) from the solution?
Cheers
I

 

[salparadise13]

I don't know exactly how much tobacco I used, but 50ml of alcohol covered it, plus some. I chopped it up fairly small before putting it in the jar, but have looked at some herb grinders to do a better job on that part. The first part of cooking off the alcohol was done in the crock pot at about 120 degrees (if I'm remembering correctly), then the next bit I tried in a toaster oven set at 150. That was after I'd added the PG and wanted to get rid of a bit more alcohol. The filtering part doesn't take more than 10-15 minutes total, and most of that's usually just the last little bit. The alcohol goes through pretty quickly. I didn't filter again after the PG was added, though I did one more filtration after the first alcohol cook off before the PG. I probably shouldn't have tried to cook off the alcohol in the crock pot, but I wasn't thinking about having the toaster and our oven is gas, so I didn't want to mess with that.

I wasn't sure if vendors had some spiffy method (lab quality) or if they just had better filtering methods.

 

[salparadise13]

Oh, and I didn't try to remove the water, just the alcohol. I wasn't sure if the water would cause problems, but figured getting it hot enough to get rid of the water might.

 

[Str8vision]

Whew, finally finished reading everything. I tried an extract as I was reading, and have a question. I extracted aged burley, burley, and dark fired from leafonly using 151 proof Everclear (strongest sold here). I did a 12 hour heat with the temp around 160 (+/- 2) in a crock pot w a temp control. I then filtered w an aeropress (used 3 filters) in to a 2 micron filter into a jar. Then the extracts went in to the freezer for a few days. After 2-3 days, I filtered again w the 2 micron filter while still in the freezer. The I cooked off about 50% of the alcohol, added PG, and tried to filter off a bit more alcohol. I got enough out that I don't taste the alcohol, and I tend to be sensitive to an alcohol taste. Anyway, my question is, what are NET.com and myvapejuice.com doing differently to where their flavors are much more distinct/refined? Mine remind me of a different NET vendor's juices that were good, but not as clear as the two above. What could I do to improve on my process to get mine closer to theirs?

I'm not sure the 151 proof will ever provide the flavor you're looking for, the 25% water content changes the extraction. You could try extending the soak time to compensate but the flavor water extracts is different than what alcohol pulls. NET.com used PG as the solvent for their extraction processes both hot and cold. If the 151 proof Everclear doesn't cut it for flavor you might try switching to using PG as the extraction solvent. The tobacco you're extracting also plays a -major- part, not all tobacco extracts well. Others have really liked extracting the "leafonly" tobacco but I personally never liked the flavor their tobacco provided, it seemed to lack depth/intensity. Sounds like you've got everything else under control.

 

[salparadise13]

Ok. I didn't realize the extra water would cause flavor issues. I'll have to try the leafonly with just PG to compare, or search for stronger alcohol. Thanks for the replies!

 

[Str8vision]

A higher water content will change the flavor that is extracted and the length of time required to obtain it. It might be possible using 151 proof alcohol to "tweak" the soak time and/or extraction temperature to get an acceptable flavor intensity but I've not experimented with 151 proof so really can't make any recommendations.

Different types of tobaccos do provide a different extracted flavor but more important than type is how the tobacco was cured. Each manufacturer has their own unique curing methods and that is why a blended tobacco from Dunhill tastes so much different than an essentially similar blend from Daughters & Ryan, Cornell & Diehl or Sutliff. Casings can also make a difference in extracted flavor just not as much as the curing process does.

The most flavor intense extractions I obtained from a PG based extraction were achieved by soaking the tobacco for 10 - 12 weeks at room temperature using a 75/20/5 - PG/VG/PGA blended solvent. Always tasted better than hot extractions but only if you have the time to wait.

 

[jonnydoe]

NET.com used PG as the solvent for their extraction processes both hot and cold.

Only PG as the solvent or CO2 ? Cant believe that Clay is able to make such deep flavours only with pg as a solvent.

 

[l337acc]

So it's been a while since I've made a NET flavor. I stopped doing it because of the coil gunk, but the flavors that I've been using aren't cutting it anymore and I want an ACTUAL tobacco flavor. A few questions:

1. Is the heated PGA extraction the current consensus on the best method for NET flavors? Last time I did this was cold/hot PG maceration.

2. Has anyone tried a coagulant for removing the particles? In water treatment, aluminum sulfide is usually used to make suspended solids stick together and settle to the bottom, and then filtered. Seems like it would be a good idea, but not sure if it would also remove all the flavor as well.

3. When reducing/transferring the concentrate to PG, has anyone tried burning the everclear instead of evaporation? Serious question.

Edit:

4. Has anyone tried using materials other than tobacco in their extractions? I'm thinking of dried mint leaves for a menthol, or crushed nuts for a 555

 

[Str8vision]

(1) PGA based extractions provide a different flavor over PG and or VG but I wouldn't say it's better or worse, taste is highly subjective. Personally, I like it better but I only vape hybrid (flavored) NETs, YMMV. PGA provides a much cleaner better performing extract/NET if you freeze filter it properly, that's it's main benefit. With a PG/VG based extract I can only vape 3ml before re-wicking/dry burning, with PGA based extractions that are freeze filtered I can vape 9 - 15ml before the atty needs maintenance.

(2) Nope, haven't tried using a coagulant, might be an interesting experiment!

(3) Nope, I'm afraid the heat generated by burning it off might be detrimental to flavor but don't know for sure. Might try it just for fun.

(4) I've tried vanilla beans but not mint, again sounds interesting.

 

[jonnydoe]

I am thinking that ethanol is much better than pg or vg extraction. I have tried both with the same tobaccos. The ethanol nets have more life are more similar to a real cigarette. I am a follower of str8s method and his idea referring freeze filtering is realy great.

Point 2 is very interesting. I am thinking about the same since a few weeks but i am afraid that a coagulant could be toxic. I am not a chemical and have no knowledgement referring coagulants. It could be that we are removing flavours by working with coagulants. I dont know nothing but i want to make some experiments in the future. I want to buy a soxhlet to make some actions like this.

Is aluminium sulfide the best coagulant for waxes, oils, sugars and other and is it okay for the healthy of our lungs ?

 

[Exchaner]

Are you referring to a coagulant for oils and waxes? I heard aluminum sulfate absorbs water, not oils.

 

[jonnydoe]

4. Has anyone tried using materials other than tobacco in their extractions? I'm thinking of dried mint leaves for a menthol, or crushed nuts for a 555

Nuts are full of oily fat. You cant vape this without separating the fat or what do you want to do ?

 

[Str8vision]

The FDA's regs are in place with a two year compliance window, I wonder how long DIY NET threads (like this one) will be allowed? Will our extraction activities be considered.... bootlegging?