Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[Str8vision]

With ethanol based extracts I tend to mix VG heavy, usually around 80/10/10 - VG/PG/Ethanol extract. The ethanol thins the mix. With PG based extracts I typically mix 40/40/20 - VG/PG/PG extract.

 

[kbriggs]

I'd be interested to see what kind of flavor a 30+ day room temperature ethanol extraction can yield

I've yet to try this myself but would be interested in your results. I'm in the middle of some whole leaf extractions using six different cigar leaves I got from leafonly.com:

Those are 0.25 lb bags (about 2 feet long for perspective) which is a lot tobacco. I can fill an 8 ounce jar with just 15 grams of tobacco (shredded with scissors). Anyway, I made one PG batch each for long term room temperature extraction, then a PGA batch each with 12 hour heat, coffee filter, 48 freeze + 2.5 micron filter, 80% reduction via fan, coffee filter again. After shake and vape, the Mexican San Andres wrapper (the most expensive one of the group) had the most potential but we will see in a week. I tried a different PGA this time. My local liquor store sells a liter of 190 proof Mohawk for about $15 whereas 0.75 liter of 190 proof Everclear is about $18. I also saved on mason jars by getting them at Walmart (12 half-pint jars for $7.36) instead of Amazon.

 

[Exchaner]

My local liquor store sells a liter of 190 proof Mohawk

I looked up Mohawk, and all I could find was Vodka - not 190 proof PGA. Is there a link you could share? I need to have it shipped since I don't live in TX, and 190 proof is not available in my location.

 

[kbriggs]

I looked up Mohawk, and all I could find was Vodka - not 190 proof PGA. Is there a link you could share?

I don't have a link (it's just a local liquor store) but picture attached. The label shows "Bottled by Mohawk Distilled Products, Bardstown, KY".

 

[kbriggs]

I don't have a link.

Actually I do have a link: Spec's Wine Spirits and Finer Foods – Buy Wine, Liquor, Beer, Cheese and Finer Foods in Texas

But it's a Texas-only chain and their shipping info section says they will only ship alcohol to in-state locations.

 

[Str8vision]

............I tried a different PGA this time. My local liquor store sells a liter of 190 proof Mohawk for about $15 whereas 0.75 liter of 190 proof Everclear is about $18. I also saved on mason jars by getting them at Walmart (12 half-pint jars for $7.36) instead of Amazon.

I rarely buy Everclear brand PGA because it's around 15% more expensive, the brand I often end up with is "Clear Spring" which is carried by local liquor stores in this neck of the woods. I've used both and IMO brand/price makes no difference when using it to extract flavor from tobacco.

Canning jars are -ideal- for extractions, they seal airtight, are designed for high heat/thermal stress applications and are dirt cheap. I buy jars, lids and rings at the local Wally world as well, can't beat the price. I keep quite a few around because I can tomatoes and garden vegetables each year. As is the case with DIY NETs, nothing beats home made for taste/quality/price.

 

[Boxster]

This experiment proved very difficult to control and required considerable attention. The temperature controller I use did its job perfectly but as these two extractions simmered the boiling point of ethanol constantly changed in one of them (the pipe tobacco). I boiled off 80% of the ethanol 10 hours into the process so halted the extraction at that point. The Nightcap turned out quite good -very robust- although the Latakia flavor component seems more pronounced than usual which isn't desirable for my taste. Unfortunately the Acid Blondie cigar lost its "acid" flavor, I believe the high process temperature "cooked" it off. I don't see great promise in highly elevated extraction temperatures when using ethanol as the solvent, a PITA to process/control and as we've discussed before higher temperatures can indeed harm and or alter flavor.

Thanks to a question asked by Kbriggs in a different thread I've started another experiment. Two pipe tobaccos (Voodoo Queen and Billy Bud) will be extracted at room temperature for 30+ days. It's been a year or two since I played around with room temperature extractions using ethanol as the solvent and if memory serves me correctly 10 days was the longest cold soak I was able to perform due to the excessive gunk ethanol would pull from the tobacco. Extractions processed beyond 10 days developed a murky plant like chlorophyll taste and were hard on wicks and coils. I wasn't able to achieve the full range or depth of flavor I desired from a 10 day room temperature ethanol soak -but- that was back before the advent of "freeze filtering". I'd be interested to see what kind of flavor a 30+ day room temperature ethanol extraction can yield and I'll be depending on freeze filtering to remove the undesirables elements that'll be leeched from the tobacco during the process. I'll start pulling in-process samples at the 30 day mark and at 2 week intervals thereafter.

Bump before this thread gets locked!

Str8, All of my PGA extractions have been cold, 4 to 8 weeks. The resulting flavor seems fine to me. I don't let mine rest before I start reduction. I do a slow reduction so I accomplish both the reduction and oil fall out simultaneously. I just seal the top of the jar with a coffee filter, put in a cupboard and let nature take it course. The coffee filter will let the PGA evaporate but keep dust from getting in the extract.

 

[Exchaner]

I did an experiment to minimize the use of PGA since it is not readily available at my location. Made a hot extraction using a solution of 47% PGA, 47% Isopropyl alcohol and 6% water. Compared to Ethanol, the extraction came out just fine. It is a bit lighter both in color and flavor - but barely noticeable. Probably won't be able to tell the difference in a blind taste. For those with limited access to high proof ethanol, this is definitely a viable alternative.

Another alternative is to use water as a medium for extraction. Someone started a thread on the subject and the results are promising.

 

[Str8vision]

Str8, All of my PGA extractions have been cold, 4 to 8 weeks. The resulting flavor seems fine to me.

This is good to hear! The oldest of my cold soaks is now approaching 7 weeks and I've got six different tobaccos in play. I plan to allow at least one of them to soak for six months (or longer)just to see how strong/intense the flavor can get. I know that when using PG/VG as the solvent after a six months soak the flavor gets quite intense. The only reason I didn't further pursue/experiment with long term PG/VG based cold soaks was the gunk factor, the longer a tobacco soaks in PG/VG the gunkier the resulting NET will be, filtration (even sub-micron) doesn't provide adequate relief. I doubt gunk will be a factor with long term ethanol based extractions since freeze filtering (which only works with ethanol) is somewhat effective at removing the cause. Time will tell

I don't let mine rest before I start reduction. I do a slow reduction so I accomplish both the reduction and oil fall out simultaneously. I just seal the top of the jar with a coffee filter, put in a cupboard and let nature take it course. The coffee filter will let the PGA evaporate but keep dust from getting in the extract.

I use coffee filters as an "air cleaner" covering the mouth of open jars during open air evaporation, a rubber band holds them in place snugly. I don't stretch the filter tight over the mouth of the jar but allow it to balloon up over the top maximizing airflow/exchange. It's not just dust I'm protecting extracts from but insects, cat fur, lint and anything/everything else that's not suppose to be in there as well....

I no longer use heat assisted reductions (convection oven) but do use a small fan to expedite evaporation/concentration which takes about a day to accomplish. The reason I do this (expedited concentration) is to first reduce the extracts ability to hold dissolved oil in solution by seriously reducing the amount of ethanol present to hold it. Once reduced the remaining ethanol is oversaturated with natural tobacco oils and the excess oil more readily falls out of solution coalescing into globules and surface skim.

Now that I'm starting to process larger batch sizes (quart jars) I expect to have over 150ml of "condensed" extract after performing an 80% reduction, having this amount of condensed extract opens up new purification options. I'm planning an experiment where once I've separated the tobacco from solvent I'll reduce it. Once an 80% reduction is achieved I'll then freeze filter the remaining condensed extract. Since the ethanol that remains after reduction is over saturated to start with I expect more gunk will fall (precipitate) out of solution when subjected to extreme cold temperatures during the freeze filtering process. If so this might yield a significantly cleaner extract. Just a thought and yet another excuse for an experiment...

 

[Boxster]

I just finished a double extraction of Drew Estates 7th Avenue Blonde.
The first extraction was a normal 4 week PGA extraction. After I filtered out the PGA extract from the tobacco, I added PG to the still wet tobacco and shelved it for 6 months. The result was a very flavorful, less gunky (I think) PG extract. I's amazing how much flavor still remained in the tobacco after the first extraction. I need to try a long term PGA extraction for comparison.

I also just finished a year long PG extraction of Nat Sherman Natural. Even mixed at half strength it is much stronger than my normal mix.

 

[Exchaner]

Thank you guys for all your good ideas. I am learning a lot from your suggestions.

 

[Str8vision]

That's the true value of this forum, many heads are better than one. I've gleaned many ideas from what others have posted throughout the years, perhaps not exactly what they did or observed but their experience helped me think outside the box we so often confine ourselves in.

 

[Str8vision]

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Unflavored Nicotine

 

[Aurora Indica]

This experiment proved very difficult to control and required considerable attention. The temperature controller I use did its job perfectly but as these two extractions simmered the boiling point of ethanol constantly changed in one of them (the pipe tobacco). I boiled off 80% of the ethanol 10 hours into the process so halted the extraction at that point.

Hi Str8,
I am noticing this too.
I recently bought a magnetic stirrer hotplate. I am noticing significant evaporation of the ethanol (over 50% in 4 hours). The hot plate temperature is set at 100c and the ethanol temp is at 60-65c. Since ethanol is supposed to have a boiling point of 78c, should this be happening?

've got multiple extractions in the works. The first batch involves four different pipe tobaccos and the amount of ethanol I used for these extractions has increased. I used enough to just cover the tobacco then added 25% more (rather than the normal 10 - 15%). I processed these for 100 hours at 125F and am now allowing them to soak at room temperature for 30 days.

Now I noticed you didn't experienced significant evaporation with this temperature. How much evaporation approximately did you get with 125f at 100 hours? When you mean 125f, are you talking about the water bath/hot plate temperature, or the temperature of the ethanol itself?

Cheers

 

[Str8vision]

Hi Str8,
I am noticing this too.
I recently bought a magnetic stirrer hotplate. I am noticing significant evaporation of the ethanol (over 50% in 4 hours). The hot plate temperature is set at 100c and the ethanol temp is at 60-65c. Since ethanol is supposed to have a boiling point of 78c, should this be happening?

No, it shouldn't. During my experiment the ethanol was visibly boiling (bubbling) although lightly. I had only lightly sealed the canning jars where excess pressure could vent past the lid seal just like when canning food. If you were losing that much ethanol at just 65C perhaps the lid was too loose. Unless the ethanol had actually boiled creating pressure nothing should have able to escape the jar. I tighten the lid ring just until the lid contacts the jar, it's actually "sealed" but not tight enough to hold pressure.

Now I noticed you didn't experienced significant evaporation with this temperature. How much evaporation approximately did you get with 125f at 100 hours? When you mean 125f, are you talking about the water bath/hot plate temperature, or the temperature of the ethanol itself?

My stated temperatures are of the water bath, I don't measure the ethanol inside the jar because the jars are always sealed. The water level in my hot water bath is always maintained at or slightly above the level of ethanol inside the jars. For the low temperature (125F) soaks the jars were sealed air-tight, therefore there was 0% loss because nothing is able to escape from the jar.

 

[Aurora Indica]

No, it shouldn't. During my experiment the ethanol was visibly boiling (bubbling) although lightly. I had only lightly sealed the canning jars where excess pressure could vent past the lid seal just like when canning food. If you were losing that much ethanol at just 65C perhaps the lid was too loose. Unless the ethanol had actually boiled creating pressure nothing should have able to escape the jar. I tighten the lid ring just until the lid contacts the jar, it's actually "sealed" but not tight enough to hold pressure.

This might have been my problem, I didn't seal the container. It was done in a standard Pyrex beaker with no lid whatsoever. I was concerned about the pressure buildup. I will try the next batch in a sealed container. I might try 100hrs @ 125f. How did the results turn out for you?

 

[Str8vision]

So far none of my experiments modifying temperature and or duration has yielded a better extract than the original method. I continue experimenting just to see if there's a better method available to us.

 

[Aurora Indica]

I agree, the original method has been the most stable one so far. I am currently experimenting with the magnetic stirrer. I have three batches going; one without stir, one with occasional stir, and another one with continuous stir. I am not noticing much difference in extract "cleanliness" or clarity, all of them were freeze filtered (two stages). I'll update on the taste results soon after mixing and steeping.

 

[Str8vision]

I was hoping that constant, gentle solvent circulation during extraction would prove beneficial. Be sure to post your thoughts/observations.

 

[Str8vision]

This might have been my problem, I didn't seal the container. It was done in a standard Pyrex beaker with no lid whatsoever. I was concerned about the pressure buildup. I will try the next batch in a sealed container. I might try 100hrs @ 125f. How did the results turn out for you?

You definitely have to seal the container otherwise the heated ethanol will "rapidly" evaporate off, I use canning jars because they're ideally suited for the heat and pressures involved. The trick is to seal the container tight enough to prevent evaporation but loose enough to allow excess pressure to vent past the lid seal, exactly the same as when canning foods. Low temp extractions (<150F) don't produce significant pressure but those that approach Ethanol's boiling point (>170F) can and the pressure -must- be allowed to vent otherwise the jar could break spilling its contents into the water bath. The way I seal canning jars is I place a lid on the jar and then install the lid ring tightening it until it just contacts the lid and begins pushing it down against the mouth of the jar, that's tight enough. While air-tight at normal pressure excess pressure inside the jar can vent past this seal, exactly what canning jars were designed to do.