Trust, Reputation, and Proof

[Boletus]

Investigating various sources of e-juice and nic base, I have seen several recommendations here on the forum, which I find quite helpful; if it hasn't killed you or made you sick, and it tastes OK, that is some assurance for me.

But every source I check out has the same basic level of assurance regarding the quality and purity of their products: "We use only USP, GRAS, and the highest quality ingredients." Some of them provide GC/MS analytical results for their nicotine, but none of those results provide the name and certifications for the labs that do the analyses.

It all sounds good, but should I stake my health on anonymous lab results and promises with no means of firm verification? So I am just curious at this point, has anyone found a source that provides verifiable proof of their purity and quality claims? Failing that, who do you believe, and why?

I am pretty sure that whatever I get from companies with good reputations in this forum is going to be far less harmful to me than burning tobacco (and the gunk they put in it), but being someone who reads lab results as part of my job, I sure would like to see a certified lab that is willing to offer proof of the vendors' claims.

 

[DoubleEwe]

I agree with what you are saying, I too would like to see proof of what is actually in the inhaled vapour (including the flavourings), not just at room temperature, but at realistic vaping temperatures.

Too many companies (in the UK at least) simply state the ingredients are food safe, which would be fantastic if it weren't for the fact that inhaling something is different from consuming it. I would happily eat a steak, but I wouldn't want it in my lungs.

This, I suppose is one plus point for e-liquid vendors being regulated by some kind of safe inhalation standards body.

I would be more concerned with the nicotine purity issue if I found out that e-juice vendors were synthesizing their own nicotine rather than buying from China etc.

 

[CRKDMike]

I'm sure there are vendors who offer the info you are looking for. I believe V2 cigs website has some info on their e-juice here:

E Cig Batch Testing at V2 Cigs

Failing that, you are always free to contact the vendor and ask!

Then try getting the same info on the purity and quality of ingredients in tobacco products.......let me know how that goes

 

[Boletus]

I'm sure there are vendors who offer the info you are looking for. I believe V2 cigs website has some info on their e-juice here:

E Cig Batch Testing at V2 Cigs

Failing that, you are always free to contact the vendor and ask!

Then try getting the same info on the purity and quality of ingredients in tobacco products.......let me know how that goes

Certainly, I agree that tobacco is probably far worse, with no assurance whatsoever that the product won't kill you (in fact, everyone knows that it will). But I am just looking for independent, verifiable proof of any e-juice vendor's claims. For example, the V2 batch testing video shows a picture of some in-house testing results, but you need a batch number to actually view the results, and from what I saw on the video, there is no state lab certification number on the report. Does that mean I think they are lying? No, but there is nothing to prove they are not.

And yes, I am a nit-picker, but again I review certified lab results for regulatory compliance. If someone has sent their product to an independent, certified lab for analysis, the lab should be willing to put their name and certification credentials on the report.

Please understand that I am not trying to scare anyone or cast aspersions on any vendors, I am just trying to find an answer to a specific question. Feel free to call me paranoid or obsessively ...., because I am.

 

[CRKDMike]

Certainly, I agree that tobacco is probably far worse, with no assurance whatsoever that the product won't kill you (in fact, everyone knows that it will). But I am just looking for independent, verifiable proof of any e-juice vendor's claims.

That seems like a worthless thing to look for, as vaping is not healthy. It's healthier than smoking, but it's not healthy. So if you are not going to bother looking for independent, verifiable proof of any Tobacco product manufacturers claims, why would you do so for e-liquid??

For example, the V2 batch testing video shows a picture of some in-house testing results, but you need a batch number to actually view the results, and from what I saw on the video, there is no state lab certification number on the report. Does that mean I think they are lying? No, but there is nothing to prove they are not.

You're right, in that case there is no proof. In that case, you seem fairly motivated to find this info, so if I were you I would contact the vendor directly and ask them.

If you are looking for the name and certifications for the labs that do the analyses, you will need to know which brand of ingredients the vendor is using, and then you would need to contact the manufacturer of that specific brand of ingredient, in order to find out who tests their product.

You are looking for info on the ingredients, of which the vendor of the e-liquid only uses, they do not manufacture it. In other words, the e-liquid vendor doesn't manufacture the nicotine that they use in their e-liquids, so you would have to contact the manufacturer of the nicotine.

And yes, I am a nit-picker, but again I review certified lab results for regulatory compliance. If someone has sent their product to an independent, certified lab for analysis, the lab should be willing to put their name and certification credentials on the report.

Agreed, but that info would lie with the manufacturer of the ingredients. Not the vendor of the finished e-liquid product.

 

[Boletus]

That seems like a worthless thing to look for, as vaping is not healthy. It's healthier than smoking, but it's not healthy. So if you are not going to bother looking for independent, verifiable proof of any Tobacco product manufacturers claims, why would you do so for e-liquid??



You're right, in that case there is no proof. In that case, you seem fairly motivated to find this info, so if I were you I would contact the vendor directly and ask them.

If you are looking for the name and certifications for the labs that do the analyses, you will need to know which brand of ingredients the vendor is using, and then you would need to contact the manufacturer of that specific brand of ingredient, in order to find out who tests their product.

You are looking for info on the ingredients, of which the vendor of the e-liquid only uses, they do not manufacture it. In other words, the e-liquid vendor doesn't manufacture the nicotine that they use in their e-liquids, so you would have to contact the manufacturer of the nicotine.



Agreed, but that info would lie with the manufacturer of the ingredients. Not the vendor of the finished e-liquid product.

Ok. I am looking for this verification because the vendors make claims about the purity of their products. Tobacco manufacturers do not make such claims, and I expect that their products are garbage.

I could call every single vendor out there and ask them, but I thought I would see if anyone here has already found such verification and was willing to share it.

Regarding manufacturers of specific ingredients, well it would be nice if vendors named their sources. If people here use vendors that do so, I am asking for the vendors' names with this thread. And I understand that researching every source of every ingredient used by every vendor would be an exercise in futility. But if a vendor states that their product has been analyzed by a lab, why not include the name and location of the lab?

And I sense resistance in your response to my questions. They are merely questions that I would like answers to. If you do not care about those questions, that is fine for you, but why should I not attempt to satisfy my curiosity?

 

[csardaz]

Check out AEMSA.org american eliquids manufacturers assoc
Their site wasn't responding at the moment or I'd link right to their standards. It was working saturday. Standards
are incomplete looks like work in progress but aside from food-service type sanitation and safety theres mostly
emphasis on tracing and verifying nicotine.

A dozen or 20 e-liquid makers so far.

 

[CRKDMike]

I think a good place to start in your quest for these answers would be naming the vendors that you are talking about. Who is making these claims?

As for specific vendors who provide this info? I have no idea.

Sorry to derail your thread, but I just can't relate to your persnickety quest. It also has a negative narrative to it, which is why I am a bit snarky

I think it is good that you edited your second post to include "Please understand that I am not trying to scare anyone or cast aspersions on any vendors" because that is the sense I got from your original post.

You read lab results for part of your job, but you need to come to this forum to discover where to find lab results??

 

[yzer]

AEMSA is one organization that supports voluntary standards for the e-liquid industry.

AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association

On mulling over this issue for a moment I pondered the 1/2 gallon carton of milk sitting in my refrigerator. This milk came from a provider of dairy products. If I wanted "verifiable proof of their purity and quality" and an assay of the milk contained in that particular carton in my refrigerator I would probably have to do a lot of searching and waiting before getting it, assuming I ever received such an assurance.

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

That seems like a worthless thing to look for, as vaping is not healthy. It's healthier than smoking, but it's not healthy. So if you are not going to bother looking for independent, verifiable proof of any Tobacco product manufacturers claims, why would you do so for e-liquid??

It's not healthy? I would like to see independent, verifiable proof of that. And if it's not healthy, I want proof that it's unhealthy...just saying.

 

[CRKDMike]

It's not healthy? I would like to see independent, verifiable proof of that.

Please tell me your joking... ... ... please?

So much for not derailing this thread any further lol

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

Please tell me your joking... ... ... please?

So much for not derailing this thread any further lol

Sorry, couldn't help myself, lol.

 

[CRKDMike]

Haha I like your style

 

[Boletus]

I think a good place to start in your quest for these answers would be naming the vendors that you are talking about. Who is making these claims?

A few examples:
Wizard Labs:
"USP grade Organic Nicotine extract minimum >99.8% diluted in a carrier base of Propylene Glycol and/or vegetable derived Glycerin for research and product applications. The nicotine base used exclusively in Wizard Labs line of solutions undergoes extraction 5-6 times per year in partnership with one of the providing labs to Johnson & Johnson's global line of NRT products for the assurance of chemical purity, quality control, and reliability. Ingredients: "
USP Nicotine Solutions
But they cannot name the supplier? Why not?

Nude Nicotine:
"We believe all “vapers” deserve the same validated chemistry and purity in an eLiquid that rivals the quality control specifications of an FDA-approved Nicotine Replacement Therapy (NRT) solution. View our certificate of analysis here."
Why Nude? - Nude Nicotine
At least they put their own name on their lab results, which I find reassuring.

RTS Vapes:
"Please read the chemical analysis and MSDS for our nicotine, propylene glycol, and vegetable glycerin. Click the link above for the appropriate chemical."
Chemical Certifications
Their nic chemical analysis states, "ANALYSIS SERVICES PERFORMED FOR: RTS Vapes - a Division of RTS Leasing, LLC, USA," but the name of the lab is not on the document.

Sorry to derail your thread, but I just can't relate to your persnickety quest. It also has a negative narrative to it, which is why I am a bit snarky.

I understand and appreciate that you do not relate to my persnickety quest, but I believe I am not the only one on this forum that cares about the purity and quality control of what I vape. Am I being persnickety? Yes, because I have already had enough encounters with professional BS artists in my lifetime.

You read lab results for part of your job, but you need to come to this forum to discover where to find lab results??

Yes, in fact I consider this a good starting place. Why not? Maybe someone here already knows something I don't. Isn't that why we come here? The lab results I routinely review have nothing to so with consumer products, I work in environmental remediation of toxic chemicals. Maybe that's where some of my paranoia/persnickety-ness comes from.

I think it is good that you edited your second post to include "Please understand that I am not trying to scare anyone or cast aspersions on any vendors" because that is the sense I got from your original post.

No, I am just someone that likes to see people back their claims with real evidence. Again, I am used to being lied to by people that want to make money.

And I believe I understand where your, what seems to me, defensiveness about my questions comes from. I am not eager to see the vaping industry go through the turmoil that the FDA will likely cause in the near future. In fact, I am searching for good suppliers in case the manure really hits the fan. But if I am going to throw down serious dough, I intend to shop around and learn who has the best stuff at the best prices. Again, that is my persnickety nature.

And thanks for your contribution to this conversation. I do appreciate the effort and time.

[Edit] But if you think I am persnickety, wait until the FDA gets started making life miserable for us. The questions I ask and the critiques I offer will seem like fairy tales by comparison.

 

[Boletus]

AEMSA is one organization that supports voluntary standards for the e-liquid industry.

AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association

On mulling over this issue for a moment I pondered the 1/2 gallon carton of milk sitting in my refrigerator. This milk came from a provider of dairy products. If I wanted "verifiable proof of their purity and quality" and an assay of the milk contained in that particular carton in my refrigerator I would probably have to do a lot of searching and waiting before getting it, assuming I ever received such an assurance.

Thanks for the link, that seems like a good place to learn more.

Oh, and about your milk: unless you buy direct from a local dairy, it is likely analyzed for purity, butterfat content, and absence of pathogens periodically and must meet set standards. No, they don't print that stuff on the carton, because Americans are used to a consumer environment that prevents them from being sickened or poisoned by the products they consume. But if it was never tested, that might not be the case.

 

[zoiDman]

...

It all sounds good, but should I stake my health on anonymous lab results and promises with no means of firm verification? So I am just curious at this point, has anyone found a source that provides verifiable proof of their purity and quality claims? ...

I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for? Are you looking for Certification of Analysis?

Something like this...

http://wholesale.heartlandvapes.com/docs/nicotine-coa.pdf

 

[Boletus]

I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for? Are you looking for Certification of Analysis?

Something like this...

http://wholesale.heartlandvapes.com/docs/nicotine-coa.pdf

Something quite like that, but with the name and certification credentials of the lab that did the analysis printed on the document. And I understand finding that is a long shot, given the way things are now, but that doesn't stop me from desiring it.

[edit] Yes, I am a paranoid, argumentative SOB I suppose, but anyone can create a document with text and a few signatures. It is the credentials that put the proof in the pudding.

 

[zoiDman]

Something quite like that, but with the name and certification credentials of the lab that did the analysis printed on the document. And I understand finding that is a long shot, given the way things are now, but that doesn't stop me from desiring it.

[edit] Yes, I am a paranoid, argumentative SOB I suppose, but anyone can create a document with text and a few signatures. It is the credentials that put the proof in the pudding.

I think what you are Looking for is an Independent Analysis.

What I referenced was, as I Understand it, an In House Analysis.

 

[Boletus]

I think what you are Looking for is an Independent Analysis.

What I referenced was, as I Understand it, an In House Analysis.

Yes indeed. And in fact, that COA does not even state that it is an in-house analysis. That's why I am inclined to believe Nude more than the others; they state plainly on the document that they performed the analysis. But an independent analysis by a certified lab would really make me happy. All of the others seem to be trying to make it look like they have independent analyses, but nothing in the way of proof.

I can provide a document that states that, if you give me the keys to your house and go away for a few days, you will come back and find a million dollars on your kitchen table. Would you believe me just based on that document? Of course not.

What bugs me is seeing lab results without even the name of the lab on them. In my world, that is equivalent to someone sending you an email telling you that, if you provide all of your bank account info, a big pile of money will be deposited in it.

 

[zoiDman]

Yes indeed. And in fact, that COA does not even state that it is an in-house analysis. That's why I am inclined to believe Nude more than the others; they state plainly on the document that they performed the analysis. But an independent analysis by a certified lab would really make me happy. All of the others seem to be trying to make it look like they have independent analyses, but nothing in the way of proof.

I can provide a document that states that, if you give me the keys to your house and go away for a few days, you will come back and find a million dollars on your kitchen table. Would you believe me just based on that document? Of course not.

What bugs me is seeing lab results without even the name of the lab on them. In my world, that is equivalent to someone sending you an email telling you that, if you provide all of your bank account info, a big pile of money will be deposited in it.

The Fact that it Doesn't have a Lab Name on it is Why I believe that it is an In House Analysis. And it is a Copy of an Internal Document.

I think your Best Bet is to Contact Vendors and ask them if they do Independent (Outside) Analysis of there Nicotine Base, PG, VG, etc.

But you are still going to be in the Same Boat.

Because I can do an Outside Analysis and Send it to you. But that does Not Guarantee that the Nicotine Base that you get from me was Part of the Batch that was Analyzed.