Who will deeming effect in the vaping community?

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Rossum

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In looking at concentrated nic safety, I came up with two possible problems. 1) A refrigerator/freezer fire, which is not uncommon (I had that experience back in the late 70s). but more likely 2) dropping a liter of 100mg or higher glass bottled nic on a tile kitchen floor (or any floor, really). So there is a safety aspect to storing nic in plastic. I'm really not sure what would happen if a liter of 100mg nic ended up splattered all over a kitchen.
1) I had never really considered that possibility. Honestly though, if my freezer catches fire, I would consider the fire itself to be a more urgent hazard than the possibility of nic fumes or other nic contamination.

2) Of course, plastic bottles are certainly more drop-safe than glass ones. However, I do not think many people keep their nic base in 1-liter glass bottles. I certainly don't. It's all in 120s. If I were to drop one on a tile floor and it broke, I would open the doors and windows, get a bucket and a mop, and clean it up. I don't think it would be a big deal at all. Now if it were a liter of pure nic, rather than the 10% base that we use, then I'd worried.
 

VNeil

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At some point my wife said that I needed my own freezer lol, she didn't have any room left for her treats, i.e., food that I cannot eat. So that was my green light to buy a small top open chest. It wasn't that expensive all things considered, and it doubles as a storage for my special diet needs food.
Still drooling. But I've thought about a medical size freezer but space is really at a premium here. I gave up space for a great view of the ocean out my windows. Anyway, that is why I store all my nic in liter bottles except one broken down. It's just the most efficient way to do things. If I had the space I might do things differently. OTOH a liter is a 7 year supply for me, and I kind of doubt I will need more than that, but at $50/L it's just hard to resist overstocking.
 

ENAUD

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Still drooling. But I've thought about a medical size freezer but space is really at a premium here. I gave up space for a great view of the ocean out my windows. Anyway, that is why I store all my nic in liter bottles except one broken down. It's just the most efficient way to do things. If I had the space I might do things differently. OTOH a liter is a 7 year supply for me, and I kind of doubt I will need more than that, but at $50/L it's just hard to resist overstocking.
And in the future, may be good for bartering ;)
 

VNeil

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1) I had never really considered that possibility. Honestly though, if my freezer catches fire, I would consider the fire itself to be a more urgent hazard than the possibility of nic fumes or other nic contamination.

2) Of course, plastic bottles are certainly more drop-safe than glass ones. However, I do not think many people keep their nic base in 1-liter glass bottles. I certainly don't. It's all in 120s. If I were to drop one on a tile floor and it broke, I would open the doors and windows, get a bucket and a mop, and clean it up. I don't think it would be a big deal at all. Now if it were a liter of pure nic, rather than the 10% base that we use, then I'd worried.
I just addressed why I have a couple of liter bottles in my apartment freezer. As far as the fire, no, there is nothing you can really do, except be aware that if you do have a freezer fire you may have some very toxic fumes in your kitchen or garage or wherever your freezer is. And you may want to notify the fire dept of that hazard when they get there...

I often GENTLY heat VG in my microwave, just to get it up to about 100F or so, in order to make it pour easier. (Yea, I know, keep it below 400F and all that, I read the thread :)). I did that once with the remains of a 250ml bottle (of nic), I think, or maybe a 120ml. I was just trying to thin it out to get as much out as I could. The bottle was almost empty. I overdid it. And when I opened the door I got a whiff of something I never want to smell again. Never again, I'll just trash what's left by rinsing the bottle. That's why I said previously to never, ever heat up 100+mg nic, even a little. A better way to do that, of course, would be to sit the bottle in a pot of warm (not boiling!) water, that would eliminate overdoing it. I might not even do that, though.
 

VNeil

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And in the future, may be good for bartering ;)
Don't think I'm not thinking that :). If I had a stand alone freezer I'd have 10 liters, at least. Also toying with the idea of "upgrading" to 200mg - twice as space efficient. Maybe try to find someone to sell my old stock to.
 

DaveP

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1) I had never really considered that possibility. Honestly though, if my freezer catches fire, I would consider the fire itself to be a more urgent hazard than the possibility of nic fumes or other nic contamination.

2) Of course, plastic bottles are certainly more drop-safe than glass ones. However, I do not think many people keep their nic base in 1-liter glass bottles. I certainly don't. It's all in 120s. If I were to drop one on a tile floor and it broke, I would open the doors and windows, get a bucket and a mop, and clean it up. I don't think it would be a big deal at all. Now if it were a liter of pure nic, rather than the 10% base that we use, then I'd worried.

I agree that glass bottles are more fragile than plastic. That said, When wrapped in brown paper followed by bubble wrap, placed in heavy duty freezer zip lock bags, and then into a corrugated box and sealed with tape, most of the issues with glass go away.

I've accidentally dropped an empty Boston Rounds 2oz bottle into our porcelain on cast iron kitchen sink on two occasions. It bounced a few times and settled down. There were no breaks or even chips. That might change if the inside were full of liquid instead of air.
 
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ExtremeDooty

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If I'm reading this right the deeming rules won't actually come into effect until 2022. If that's the case, I don't have to worry. I probably won't live that long. Are some of the stocking up actions based on the pre extension date? Sounds like I should probably freeze some nicotine, but I can take my time learning to DIY juice and then maybe even learn to build coils. But I don't have to do all those things today?
 

ENAUD

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If I'm reading this right the deeming rules won't actually come into effect until 2022. If that's the case, I don't have to worry. I probably won't live that long. Are some of the stocking up actions based on the pre extension date? Sounds like I should probably freeze some nicotine, but I can take my time learning to DIY juice and then maybe even learn to build coils. But I don't have to do all those things today?
Simple answer, it would be wise to get some 100mg nic and put it away in the freezer. There is no guarantee that it will always be available. the rest of the stuff, you've got time. The whole thing is complicated and nobody has a crystal ball.
 

Rossum

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If I'm reading this right the deeming rules won't actually come into effect until 2022. If that's the case, I don't have to worry. I probably won't live that long. Are some of the stocking up actions based on the pre extension date? Sounds like I should probably freeze some nicotine, but I can take my time learning to DIY juice and then maybe even learn to build coils. But I don't have to do all those things today?
Much of the Deeming is technically already in effect. For example there's a imminent deadline to register all products. As far as I'm aware, the only deadline that's been pushed back to 2022 is the one for PMTA applications, which should allow products that were on the market prior to 8/8/16 and have been registered (this year) to continue to be sold until then without the insane expense of preparing a PMTA application.

That said, the current administration's FDA hasn't shown much enthusiasm for enforcing any of this, at least not yet.

So can we be sure that we'll continue to have freely available nic base until 2022? Nope. There's nothing that prevents the FDA from promulgating some new reg limiting the concentration and/or quantity of nic that's sold to a consumer in the meanwhile. So I agree with @ENAUD -- if you don't have some already, get some, and put it in the freezer for a rainy day.
 

JCinFLA

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I don't want to give you a red X, but I disagree. Yes, almost all of mine is in glass, with polycone caps, but there appears to be little (if any) downside to storing it in PET plastic. I discovered this by accident when I found some nic I'd bought 2-1/2 years earlier that I'd forgotten about in the freezer. It was fine.

Well, you have every right to disagree with how I chose to personally store my own nic base and why I chose that way. I never said that everyone must/should do it that way, nor that any other method is wrong. But, feel free to use the red X if you choose to...no problem. I always "put my big girl panties on" before coming to the forum! :)

However, my post had nothing to do with changes in nic base, or the lack of changes, when comparing nic base stored in the freezer (in a PET bottle) vs. not stored in a freezer (which is what your thread is about, IIRC from browsing it periodically). I didn't mention nic degradation or other changes at all, as the reason for why I chose to use glass bottles. Since it's a page or so back, here it is again:

"I, personally, would never store nic base in a plastic bottle, in a freezer...unless that bottle was made by a plastics company to meet specific standards required for use by the scientific and medical fields. Those bottles have to meet rigid specs (which are plainly published), including specs for maximum and minimum storage temps. The regular plastic containers that any/all the nic base I've ever bought comes in...weren't made to meet those standards. All of mine is in glass bottles with poly cone caps."

There IS a big difference between ordinary plastic bottles that we're all familiar with (made for everyday use) and those made by companies like Azlon, Dynalon, etc. that meet the specs for scientific and medical uses. I said those would be the only kind of plastic bottles I'd use, if I used plastic at all. I decided that because I've had ordinary plastic bottles/containers in my own freezer over the years...that have split or cracked during freezer storage time of well less than a year. It was no big loss when I had to pitch some homemade vegetable soup, some chicken stock, and a few other things over the years. But...I decided I definitely wanted to eliminate that possible situation with my nic base, years down the road.
 

ScottP

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Where I (personally) agree with the poster you were referring to, is the one area where the government can (and has indicated a possible desire to) regulate our batteries, is to regulate our devices by making rules where devices made for vaping would require integrated batteries. If they do so, it would make mech's forever unable to get FDA approval. This is the concern and fear of the mech crowd.

There are easy ways around this as well. Manufacturers can take 2 18650's wrap them with some electrical tape and use 1 screw to hold the battery door in place and they fit the definition of integrated batteries, but they would still be easy to replace. Not to mention, I have personally replaced integrated battery packs in things that were't designed to have them replaced. Things like cordless shavers, bluetooth headsets, etc. that use hard to find batteries. They will never stop me from replacing batteries.

As far as mech's go, it is too easy to make a mech for them to really be stopped. All you need is a tube, a button and a 510 connector. You can make them out of plumbing pipe, old flashlights. I know that making them isn't for everyone at least not as long as they are available, but believe me, if they can't be sold anymore there will be "plans" all over the internet.
 

stols001

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I agree that it maybe doesn't need to be done today but maybe some time in the not to distant future.

I have most of my nic in glass bottles with the requisite lids, but I do have one plastic bottle frozen simply because I did that with the first liter, and so far so good-- I'm not ready/willing at this point to get a whole bunch more bottles and re-freeze it since it seems to be holding up fine (not worried about contamination as it's still in it's secondary seal very thick plastic bag. It may not hold up, in which case I'll have my answer, since the rest of my nic is in glass....

Anna
 

VNeil

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There are easy ways around this as well. Manufacturers can take 2 18650's wrap them with some electrical tape and use 1 screw to hold the battery door in place and they fit the definition of integrated batteries, but they would still be easy to replace. Not to mention, I have personally replaced integrated battery packs in things that were't designed to have them replaced. Things like cordless shavers, bluetooth headsets, etc. that use hard to find batteries. They will never stop me from replacing batteries.

As far as mech's go, it is too easy to make a mech for them to really be stopped. All you need is a tube, a button and a 510 connector. You can make them out of plumbing pipe, old flashlights. I know that making them isn't for everyone at least not as long as they are available, but believe me, if they can't be sold anymore there will be "plans" all over the internet.
I suspect those 18650s wrapped in tape and under a door with a screw will never get a PMTA. The FDA may be evil but they aren't stupid. Assuming a continuation of the same mentality we've seen.
 
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ScottP

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I suspect those 18650s wrapped in tape and under a door with s screw will never get a PMTA. The FDA may be evil but they aren't stupid. Assuming a continuation of the same mentality we've seen.

You say that, but that is never the less what most "battery packs" are. Some are packaged in a hard plastic shell (such as laptops) but even then inside are just clusters of normal batteries. Devices are always held together with screws, thus in like 90% of cases the batteries can be replaced even when they aren't intended to be. And as long as there is an open internet there will be "how to" videos on how to do exactly that. Case in point there are several videos showing how to take apart things like Vision Spinners and EGO-Twists (built in non-replaceable batteries) to repair things like buttons. Just follow those videos and just change the battery before reassembly and wallah, you changed the battery. Bottom line, built in packs might stop some people from from changing them at will, but I guarantee you it will not stop me. I have already done it too many times with too many different things for it to stop me now.
 

Rossum

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I suspect those 18650s wrapped in tape and under a door with a screw will never get a PMTA. The FDA may be evil but they aren't stupid. Assuming a continuation of the same mentality we've seen.
Yeah, I suspect they'd have to be "sealed', just like the battery packs full of 18650s that are ubiquitous for cordless power tools.
 

VNeil

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You say that, but that is never the less what most "battery packs" are. Some are packaged in a hard plastic shell (such as laptops) but even then inside are just clusters of normal batteries. Devices are always held together with screws, thus in like 90% of cases the batteries can be replaced even when they aren't intended to be. And as long as there is an open internet there will be "how to" videos on how to do exactly that. Case in point there are several videos showing how to take apart things like Vision Spinners and EGO-Twists (built in non-replaceable batteries) to repair things like buttons. Just follow those videos and just change the battery before reassembly and wallah, you changed the battery. Bottom line, built in packs might stop some people from from changing them at will, but I guarantee you it will not stop me. I have already done it too many times with too many different things for it to stop me now.
Those spinners didn't have to pass PMTA scrutiny. Not those other commercial battery packs. It is more likely they will be sonically welded together. With your mad skilz, sure you will Drexel the case in half but most people won't do that. Probably nor should they
 
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ENAUD

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Annnnd, then there is the rest of the world. China and its factories are not going to be affected by the FDA.

Evolve will be able to make boards to their hearts content, and sell them to any manufacturer who wants them, because the boards are not a finished tobacco product.

Battery manufacturers will be unaffected.

On and on We could go... Hopefully somebody will challenge the FDA on whether electronic devices are even legally controllable as a tobacco product. Somebody should.

Nicotine and eliquid are really all that they should ethically be allowed to regulate. they are the only consumable part of the whole.
 

PJReid

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And remarkably coincides with a change in administration (and associated change in the FDA leadership). Either you believe in that coincidence or you believe that the future of vaping hinges on the 2017 election...

Did you mean the 2018 Election? No, I don't think it is a coincidence that regulations eased with the administration change this year. Public health is not a priority of the current administration. Quite the opposite and that is good for us. What is better for us than having the government ignore public health is to have them pay attention to studies like the Georgetown study and its recommendations. I am a bleeding heart liberal yet admit it is the liberals who hurt the vaping industry that most. I do believe that impossible to ignore studies like the one I referenced will change a lot of even liberal minds so it won't matter which party is in charge. JMHO
 

Rossum

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I do believe that impossible to ignore studies like the one I referenced will change a lot of even liberal minds so it won't matter which party is in charge. JMHO
So you expect politicians, some of whom have outright called for bans on vaping, to admit they were wrong?

Color me skeptical. :)
 
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