Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

Steamix

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Oh my gosh...

Living in the EU, I thought the TPD was taking a wrecking ball to vaping.
But what the FDA 's been cooking up is a megaton nuke in comparison.

And both will keep a lot of lawyers and courts busy on both sides of the Atlantic.

Especially the 'parts and components' thing.

Heck, in theory I could vape by pouring liquid onto a hot plate. So what's it gonna be ? PMTA for toasters ?
Flashlight or cellphone batteries ? Metal tubing ?

SE ruling - no hazard to health n all that. Check yer stats. How many vapers croaked since 2007 from vaping ?
Now tally against the number of smokers no longer with us...

And still they insult the intelligence of the vaping community. Does it really need nearly five hundred pages of verbal ........ if the plain obvious right-in-your-face can be said in one sentence?

We, the FDA, just sold you out.

I need fewer words myself :

Habeas corpus. I am not for sale
 

Bronze

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Oh indeed. California is already ahead of that curve, with about 10 bills inflight to really screw gun owners this year. They are keeping the NRA quite busy, assuming they don't just throw their hands up and just walk away from the state.
Maybe CA will chip off the side of the continent and float away. :)
 

WharfRat1976

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There was one Dem signed on to the amendment to the budget that changes the grandfather date the same way. Last I saw there weren't any Dem names on HR 2058, and not enough Rep names to give it legs.

The budget amendment seems like it would be a better chance for us, since Obama is committed to signing the budget, he certainly wouldn't block it just because of a grandfather date change. Whereas he might well block HR 2058 as a standalone bill.
I cant see HR 2058 having any chance. If it does, it basically would negate the 499 pages. There would be virtually nothing to regulate.

Not happening. I'm keeping the faith just trying to keep it real.
 

Endor

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Just in case any of you happen to buy into the FDA claim that this isn't a ban because there is a magical pathway to approval, filled with unicorns and rainbows, the FDA approved the FIRST EVER PMTA in late 2015. I believe it still remains the sole PMTA approved since 2007.

It contained 100,000 pages.

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: First PMTA Approvals by FDA Demonstrate Why Treating E-Cigarettes Like Tobacco Products Makes No Sense and Will Decimate the Industry
 

DaveP

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Since they mention GMP, I wonder if they make their own nicotine. If they supply that nicotine for use in gums or patches distributed in the USA, they would need FDA registration.

Dekang and Hangsen both produce NET (naturally extracted tobacco) flavors that are the best I've found.
 
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therussellv

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I don't think this is anything to get too alarmed about.
There is a way around almost any regulation.
For instance, I'm coming to vaping from smoking.
I don't pay $10 a pack, I pay around $1 a pack because I use 'pipe tobacco'
If that was to be banned (and if I continued to smoke) I would buy my tobacco in leaf form, and there is no tax because it is not in its final smokable form.
I imagine that the same will apply to nicotine - any taxes etc will probably not apply until it is made into e liquid.
Same goes for flavorings, PG and VG - they are not e liquid until you mix them all together.
True, you will only be able to make it for personal use, and this will put many (most?) E liquid manufacturers out of business, but it doesn't have to be the end of vaping.

I'm not sure how this will affect PV's themselves, but there is plenty of time to stock up on mech mods (no electronics to fail) stainless steel (ie no glass to break) tanks, rebuildable decks etc.
Resistance wire for coils will not be banned.
18650 batteries will not be banned.

It will be crappy, but it won't be the end for those determined enough to vape.
Kids, they're so trusting when they are young, its so cute.

Sent from a dark, twisted corner of the back porch, covered in cobwebs and slightly damp.
 

SpyderBite

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well Spyder, if you vote for the other side you might as well bend over ..........
Meh. I liked the first Clinton. I don't think Part 2 will be much different.

Too political though. I'd vote Klohie or Kourtney before I'd vote Kim. I mean Trump. [emoji13]

Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock.
 

Jman8

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Made it all the way to p. 14 before I was compelled to respond. Lots to say, will do my best to keep it short. Probably going to be saying a lot on this over next few days to weeks.

For the TL;DR crowd, you can jump to the end where I sum all of what this wall of text is saying.

CASAA position makes most sense to me. It is not a time to panic. Nothing from consumer perspective will be changing for the next 30 days. So if you are prone to panic, then stock up now.

I see what little I've read of the Final Rule as 'worst case scenario.'

While I think it sucks in its overreach, I am a (surprisingly) humored by it. I think they (Feds, and/or anyone thinking this is for sure enforceable) will lose. Lose very bad. I will rejoice each time they lose. If some officer or whatever is hurt while acting on behalf of the 'war against vaping' (read as enforcement), I will rejoice. Sorry if that rubs some the wrong way, but it is how I am with regards to all things prohibition. You call for war on something, I hope you get hurt by it. I will not be supporting your efforts, even in spirit. You deserve resistance, and if that causes injury in the process, then perhaps time to rethink the policy. When the inevitable time comes to revisit what is clearly an overreaching policy, it will be hilarious how idiotic and wrong anyone who thought enforcement stood a chance. It doesn't.

From consumer perspective, this Rule for sure affects us, but is clearly not aimed at us. It's meant to diminish supply side. So, I think of it as best interest for politically aware consumers to make it well known that we intend on purchasing through underground / illegal / black markets. Broadcasting that. I think many will not wish to do that in a world where everything you say or do can be tracked, but the more this type of message is out there, the more likely they (Feds) are to rethink the policy before an otherwise useless war occurs. I see the otherwise useless war occurring, and is part of the reason I don't see reason to panic. Unless this is the first product in human history that you won't be able to find on the underground market, I think consumers are going to do well in the emerging market that the FDA is CLEARLY RESPONSIBLE FOR co-creating. Once you, as consumer are active on that market, I'd suggest not being too vocal about things, but at same time, realizing that you are now engaged in market that is at war with a federal policy that came into effect on May 5th, 2016. The more we consumers have to stay on the down low to navigate that underground market effectively, the more likely the war will be seemingly hidden. Yet, stats will be kept and I think they'll show usage either remains the same or grows due to all the hideous lies the Feds will attempt to pass off as fact, but are determined to be propaganda.

While I am not panicked (I'm really not), I am very disappointed. And will be seeking guidance from likes of CASAA of how to proceed in ways that I think will help us to fight back. For most part, I think the high emotional stuff we are experiencing now will blow over, but I think the general dismay will continue for as long as FDA's final rule is seen as supreme (legal/political) authority on eCig use in America, or the free world.

I can't help but understand this as a political issue. I thought they'd wait till after the February/March/April national political stuff and sure enough they did. I don't think that timing is coincidental. I also think Hillary winning in 2016 would contribute to the war against vaping. I'm not sure where the Donald stands on vaping, but would agree with anyone thinking he is possibly not pro-vaping. I do think he'll be better than Hillary, but that's not saying much. IMO, it would be really nice if we consumers could find out where he stands, but also possible his campaign rhetoric won't match what he would actually do if he were to be come POTUS. I really do not think it would be worse than if Hillary won. Plus, I think a Trump victory would impact SCOTUS and that vaping legal fight might get to that point.

Because it is a POTUS election year, I do think it matters more than contacting Congress. Not that I'm 100% on this, but same Pub controlled Congress has had ample opportunity to nip this issue in the bud and so not sure what we expect them to do now...other than to fast track the Cole bill. Which as @Kent C noted is item Obama has to sign off on, which goes back to how important it is that this is a POTUS election year.

I realize some vapers who lean left don't want to hear the issue framed in this manner, but sorry, I know of no other way to get at the crux of the political nonsense FDA is floating out there without bringing this up. Dems will seek to screw us as much as FDA is, and Pubs will probably do it less. Remote possibility that Pubs could save us from the Dem voodoo that is trying to tie FSPTCA to vaping politics, and right about now looks like it is succeeding.

But, I think other than the whole black market aspect which I now see as inevitable, that the legal fight is our best collective hope. The Trump factor is a bit of wishful thinking, but all things POTUS strike me as wishful thinking. The legal fight is mainly for vendors/manufacturers to help supply side not go out of business or lose to what will be having to compete with underground market that magically doesn't have to pay any taxes. At all. The legal fight can change all of this really fast, but tends to move so slow that it might be a good 24 months from now that anything actually occurs. Well after President Trump has weighed in on the issue.

From what little I read on the Final Rule, the FDA came off to me as desperately trying to justify its legal authority, making all sort of bold claims. I hope a good legal team takes them to task and mops the courtroom floors with their bureaucratic heads. I much prefer the Feds lose the legal battle than see a war being waged with enforcement agents losing (respect, lives), but FDA has drawn the line in the sand and the wheels of legal justice will probably move slower than the wheels of FDA / anti-tobacco people seeking to diminish supply/suppliers.

To sum all this up:
- CASAA is right - don't panic
- as a consumer, I'd advocate all consumers right now be very vocal about the idea that you will be seeking a black market for your products and that you look forward to not paying taxes on products
- vote for Trump, or at least be part of the politically aware people that tries to discern where he stands with regards to vaping rights
- hope for the best in the legal fight, realize the FDA is overreaching and does appear quite desperate in their legal rhetoric meant to justify their Final Rule
 

ChronicVaper

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Apr 4, 2016
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I already buy my coils and battery related stuff from China.
Hard to imagine them finding a way to stop me.

My biggest concern would be losing the amazing vapes I buy from various suppliers online.

How long do I have before these companies stop selling?

The ecigs the Big Tobacco make taste like ..... Njoy makes some "ok" stuff, nothing close to the tasty premium vapes ive grown to love.

Do I really have to buy a ton of the stuff I like and freeze it?
 

salemgold

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OK, I'm tuning out for the rest of the night.

This has been an epic 9 year adventure, but it seems that it's all coming to a close. Very sad days indeed.

We knew this was coming, but now it has, I can't quite believe it.

That just sounds too final. It is very sad but, we have to find the motivation to keep on fighting this until there is no more fight left in us.

Obviously nobody in our government cares about how many lives will be lost to cigarette smokers that never have the opportunity to find out how well vaping does work to free people from a life threatening addiction. We must keep fighting this until there truly is nothing left to do. So many lives depend on it.

This has been a tough day for all. Hopefully after a break and some rest, we will all come back with renewed vigor and the determination to keep on fighting the good fight.
 

williamclarkonet

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The opinion of a Texan

In the words of Robert Stephenson Smythe Baden Powell: "expect the best, but be prepared for the worst.

For the last two years I have been collecting materials and knowledge to make myself independant in terms of vaping, i could easily go 5 years or more without making any vape purchases. It would be a bit boring, but i would get through.

That having been said, it is my opinion, based on a lifetime of observing yankee nanny state politicians who just want to save us from ourselves, that with the developments in forward thinking coming out of England lately, all this will blow over soon and we will be back to normal.
Dont get me wrong, dont stop fighting, dont stop protesting, dont stop calling your representatives, just dont panic, and BE PREPARED.

Sent from a dark, twisted corner of the back porch, covered in cobwebs and slightly damp.
Well Said! I totally agree!
 
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Bronze

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To sum all this up:
- CASAA is right - don't panic
- as a consumer, I'd advocate all consumers right now be very vocal about the idea that you will be seeking a black market for your products and that you look forward to not paying taxes on products
- vote for Trump, or at least be part of the politically aware people that tries to discern where he stands with regards to vaping rights
- hope for the best in the legal fight, realize the FDA is overreaching and does appear quite desperate in their legal rhetoric meant to justify their Final Rule
Trump himself will be utterly oblivious about vaping. This man has a deep seeded hatred of tobacco and alcohol (for personal consumption) and likely will see vaping in the same terms. Not that he would ban them (he owns a winery after all). But he wont go out of his way to protect them either. However, as I posted earlier, if Trump wins I believe he will appoint Ben Carson to head the Department of Health and Human Services...the agency that the FDA reports to. If this pans out, I can see Dr. Carson pulling back these foolish regulations and Donald Trump not getting in his way.
 

Rt1Rebel

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To sum all this up:
- CASAA is right - don't panic
- as a consumer, I'd advocate all consumers right now be very vocal about the idea that you will be seeking a black market for your products and that you look forward to not paying taxes on products
- vote for Trump, or at least be part of the politically aware people that tries to discern where he stands with regards to vaping rights
- hope for the best in the legal fight, realize the FDA is overreaching and does appear quite desperate in their legal rhetoric meant to justify their Final Rule

I want to add, for what it's worth, 3 letter agencies are at the beck and call of the POTUS. Obama has the IRS, EPA, ATF, et al, doing dirty dirty things to further his agenda.

IMO, the best hope is:

1) That Trump is elected. No, I'm not in the tank for him, but Hillary sure does not care about anything that decreases tax revenue.

2) We get that message to him in numbers. Not sure how to go about that, but I discovered today that Trump has a FB page and accepts comments on his posts, and that he does twitter extensively. Perhaps a coordinated mass message from the community would get noticed and maybe even a response.

IDK, just throwing this out there. There's not much that can alter a 3 letter agency and the way they do things other than the POTUS.
 

MrDripper

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Barring some sort of realistically unlikely reversal up the road (sorry, hope I'm wrong, but I'm just not seeing it now), this really does spell the end of the vaping industry as we know it.
It'll take a while, but we'll have whatever garbage the tobacco industry produces, whatever the DIY crowd can assemble in their homes, and an underground that will thrive some but won't be inviting to the millions of ordinary people, including many, many elderly folks, who either won't know how to access it or would be uncomfortable doing so.
There's been something to worry about always on the horizon since I started using ecigs in 2009. Always.
We've all written stuff and signed stuff and kept up with the research and tried to badger our lawmakers, year after year. I did, stopped wanting to talk about it in forums all the time, just quietly kept up and kept on. None of them came through for us adequately, not on either side of the aisle - at best it was an incidental bleep in the corner of the screen for a handful of them. So here it is. Bam.
I don't even feel like ranting, I'm all out of rant. Just flat out dead cold furious, and miserable. Not just for me, for the thousands of lives that could be saved. My Mom's life could have been saved if they'd come out 30 years earlier. My beautiful daughter will probably start smoking again, she's not going to fool with a black market, I know her. All that worry and struggle and obsession and failure and humiliation and stink and sickness, remember? For me that's what this is all about.
Our little miracle.
Filthy old world.
Very well said.
 

nicotime

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Well I guess tomorrow the headlines will be "BT introduces a completely kid safe device (mod) with harmless e-liquid (ingredients a trade secret of course so we dont see its the same as we use now), and the feds will swoon over it! Or will it be BP with a revolutionary new drug??? BS!
 

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