Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Lessifer]

Sometimes the need is only temporary. Once an agency is in place, once the need is over, it then has to come up with a reason to keep going. That's when we get into trouble.

Government is too big.

I do believe we have agencies and regulations that no longer serve the purpose for which they were created. I also fully understand why they grow like weeds. Put a regulation/law/standard in place and people will try to find loopholes. Businesses look for loopholes to improve their profits. People look for loopholes to increase their benefit or decrease their cost. Someone finds something that wasn't covered and they file suit, and so on. As a society, we seem to have lost the notion of checks and balances, at every level.

We like to think that before the deeming, vaping was "regulated" by the market, and it was, to some extent. The niche/artisan market was/is very responsive to public opinion within the vaping community. However, we also had the vaping products(BT and the predatory cigalike companies) that any "real vaper" wouldn't touch, but that have still grown to have the majority of market share.

Of those possible 12.3 million vapers, 50% or more buy their products at convenience stores are gas stations, many of them BT products, and they either don't know or don't care about the issues that vaping faces.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Government officials (those that don't fit this category usually don't last long) feed off power. Most legislation and regulation goes through back channels where tradeoffs of power are made. The more power in favors etc that can be accrued the more successful the official will be. Power can be traded for money or other things of physical substance and visa versa. For the most part it grows until more power opposes it or the majority of the public has the wherewithal to oppose it. My Father fought this on a local level until he was so beat down and ostracized by those with power that he retired. I can only assume that the things I heard of going on at the local level are amplified as the amount of power available increases.

 

[beckdg]

So let's say Hunter's bill passes and effectively bans the sale of new mechs. Will that keep any smokers from being able to switch to vaping? No, it will not because mechs are no longer necessary for anyone to to succeed in getting off cigarettes, and there will be no shortage of regulated mods available.

Let's say it restricts joose to AEMSA standards.

And some folks start smoking again when their WTA disappears.

And others never get the chance.

Let's just say.

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[beckdg]

What a concept, limited government and I agree with you absolutely, Bronze. And I would add that it is complicated because complexity encourages submission. I have wondered why people are willing to be ruled over by people no brighter than themselves and ascribe "good" intentions to their regulations - amazingly almost without question.
However, the urge toward central control will continue unabated with or without me. We will rail against "big this" and "big that" unless it is big government. We are ready to accept legislation and regulation as long as they don't seem too bad and has a really "good" purpose.
Reminds me of the frog in a pot on a stove wondering ...

No worries.

They're going to pass it to know what's in it anyway.

I presume this means some of these accepting citizens are far brighter than the governing individuals or collective.

Case in point, the guys paid to write the legislation the legislators refuse to read before they vote on it.

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[Lessifer]

Let's say it restricts joose to AEMSA standards.

And some folks start smoking again when their WTA disappears.

And others never get the chance.

Let's just say.

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If I understand the issue with WTA, from what I've read on the AEMSA site, their issue is that they don't know the process of how it's extracted, or what, if any, chemicals might be used in that process. So, since they don't know, they don't include it in their approved standards.

I would think that if this actually became the law, the WTA manufacturers would work with AEMSA to get their products approved.

Just an idea, I don't necessarily support the AEMSA standards myself.

 

[beckdg]

By conservative Estimates (5% of the Adult Population of 247M) that would be about 12.3 Million People who use e-Cigarettes.

Think if Every Vaper sent a Letter to their State/Federal Rep.

On the Same Day.

Nice pipe dream. Even if we made it super easy for them to do that, the majority won't.

All Too True.

As is the Say'n... "People who do Nothing almost Always get Exactly what they Deserve."

Write the letter.
Send the emails.
Include the link that sends it with your e-signature.

Allow a space for comments and encourage, but don't necessitate a story "in your own words".

You'd be surprised how effective shutting down our legislators emails every couple days or after every change or news can be.

And how easy it is to get the support to do so.

Our advocacy is failing us miserably.

Compromise isn't a starting point.

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[Rossum]

Let's say it restricts joose to AEMSA standards.

And some folks start smoking again when their WTA disappears.

And others never get the chance.

Let's just say.

First off, we were talking about mech mods, not liquids.

But OK, let's just say. What's the alternative to this bill? The status quo could very well have the FDA never approve a PMTA for any open-system liquid. IMO, the vaping world would be far better off with liquids made to AEMSA standards than no liquids at all.

 

[beckdg]

What's the alternative to this bill?

The cojones and intelligence for our advocacy to pick a strategy with a history of winning without devastating compromise.

Things have momentum in our direction currently.

The new administration looks to be possibly more open to our needs.

I find our insistence to compromise our fellow vapers more unbelievable than the possibility for a hands down win, personally.

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[beckdg]

If I understand the issue with WTA, from what I've read on the AEMSA site, their issue is that they don't know the process of how it's extracted, or what, if any, chemicals might be used in that process. So, since they don't know, they don't include it in their approved standards.

I would think that if this actually became the law, the WTA manufacturers would work with AEMSA to get their products approved.

Just an idea, I don't necessarily support the AEMSA standards myself.

Pffft!

Natural and artificial flavors.

That argument doesn't hold water until they ban flavors also.

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[beckdg]

But I agree.

We're going to lose and call it a win.

Then continue to lose incrementally.

Because even those that are informed think along the lines on display here.

I'm glad I'm stocked up.

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[Rossum]

The cojones and intelligence for our advocacy to pick a strategy with a history of winning without devastating compromise.

I'm sorry, but I don't see WTA not being immediately approved as "devastating". Personally, I did find it helpful early on and I still drip a drop or two here and there, but most vapers have never even heard of WTA much less used it.

Things have momentum in our direction currently.
The new administration looks to be possibly more open to our needs.

I agree about the administration, but to actually put a stake through the heart of the Deeming requires a bill to be passed by both the House and the Senate, and getting that to happen may indeed require a certain degree of compromise. Remember there are Senators who would outright ban vaping if they could.

 

[Buckeyevapen]

Write the letter.
Send the emails.
Include the link that sends it with your e-signature.

Allow a space for comments and encourage, but don't necessitate a story "in your own words".

You'd be surprised how effective shutting down our legislators emails every couple days or after every change or news can be.

And how easy it is to get the support to do so.

Our advocacy is failing us miserably.

Compromise isn't a starting point.

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I have long thought that if I were a vender I would have a box option to select at check out that would automatically populate a form email to each and every major supporter and those on the fence who could become a supporter in congress. Why would I do this? Because it's in my businesses best interest?

Not entirely.

More so to stoke and encourage the passion of the vaping community to do no less then make their voices heard.

I am hopeful.

Vape on.

 

[beckdg]

I agree about the administration, but to actually put a stake through the heart of the Deeming requires a bill to be passed by both the House and the Senate, and getting that to happen may indeed require a certain degree of compromise.

1 failed convert that goes on to emphysema or death due to having something beneficial unavailable, I'd consider devastating.

And I'd bet my children that's what we're advocating when supporting laying down with the hunter proposal as an end game to something that has no end in sight be it at the local, state or federal level.

I agree.

I say we stop failing and compromise... or completely shut down... their communications with their constituents.

Compromise their delusion that they govern us and reinforce the fact that they're our employees.

Much Much smaller groups have easily accomplished the same with no leg to stand on and nearly nothing at stake.

We're talking about people's lives and their cardiovascular health.

I'm at a loss.

And yes... I understand the focus has been on mechs.

Given the tone of this forum at times, it's easy to understand why they're easily thrown under the bus and focus would be there when considering a net gain over "the alternatives".

Alternatives that at this point haven't yet shown to even having a hope or modicum of promise towards being eventual reality.

Well... aside from the deeming as it once was referred to.

I understand feeling defeated.

But accepting it at another's peril?

No.

Just no.

And none of this will even remotely affect me...

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[beckdg]

I wish Andria was in this discussion.

I'd like to see how she feels about this and what she'd propose.



I bet she'd garner much more support despite my argument being selfless.

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[Lessifer]

1 failed convert that goes on to emphysema or death due to having something beneficial unavailable, I'd consider devastating.

And I'd bet my children that's what we're advocating when supporting laying down with the hunter proposal as an end game to something that has no end in sight be it at the local, state or federal level.

I agree.

I say we stop failing and compromise... or completely shut down... their communications with their constituents.

Compromise their delusion that they govern us and reinforce the fact that they're our employees.

Much Much smaller groups have easily accomplished the same with no leg to stand on and nearly nothing at stake.

We're talking about people's lives and their cardiovascular health.

I'm at a loss.

And yes... I understand the focus has been on mechs.

Given the tone of this forum at times, it's easy to understand why they're easily thrown under the bus and focus would be there when considering a net gain over "the alternatives".

Alternatives that at this point haven't yet shown to even having a hope or modicum of promise towards being eventual reality.

Well... aside from the deeming as it once was referred to.

I understand feeling defeated.

But accepting it at another's peril?

No.

Just no.

And none of this will even remotely affect me...

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Why would we see the hunter legislation as end game? I see it as a much better step in the right direction than cole-bishop, but I wouldn't accept either as final, only as opposed to the current law.

 

[Lessifer]

Pffft!

Natural and artificial flavors.

That argument doesn't hold water until they ban flavors also.

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It's my understanding that all flavors used are GRAS. Even though this applies to consumption and not inhalation, it's something.

I can also understand a manufacturer not wanting to share their trade secrets with a self appointed standards agency. However, like I said, if it becomes the law I would assume they would be more willing to share, and their intellectual property should be better protected.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Do you honestly believe that? With, what is it now, 650 million people spread across 50 states and a few territories covering a geographic area spanning an entire continent. With international corporations and divisive social and religious ideologies.

Now, I'm not saying that regulatory machines don't become beasts that eventually end up running just to feed themselves, but they always start from a need.

And when the need is satisfied, the regulatory "beast" is never satisfied. It will never satiated.

 

[beckdg]

Why would we see the hunter legislation as end game?

The real question:

How else could you be willing to accept it?

It would be the STARTING POINT of a one sided compromise in a constant legislative push across all levels of legislation.

It's my understanding that all flavors used are GRAS.

However, like I said, if it becomes the law I would assume they would be more willing to share, and their intellectual property should be better protected.

GRAS for inhalation?

AFAIK, there's one (or not much more) way to extract WTA.

ONE trade secret.

How many trade secrets are there to extracting and/or manufacturing our flavors?

AEMSA's stance against WTA is hypocritical, random and proprietary within itself.

Unless we see flavors banned and returning to acceptable under their watch as each flavor concentrate divulges their processes and trade secrets.

And when the need is satisfied, the regulatory "beast" is never satisfied. It will never satiated.

I can't believe it takes a retired judge to get this when faced with a compromise (only on our part) somewhat less than our last proposed compromise.

We're playing a game of pick your poison and there's a low hanging, shiny apple.

And nearly every member here must be named Eve.

I see it.

And I still can't believe it.

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[Bronze]

There was a time only a few years ago when, if someone wanted/needed more than 15-20 watts to quit smoking, they had no choice but to use a mech, but in the current age of 250 watt regulated mods, that's no longer the case.

So true. All the advantages of a mech were vanquished with the development of the high powered regulated mods except perhaps size (mechs did not need space for chip sets) and maybe durability. But from a functionality perspective mechs offer no advantage.

Do you honestly believe that? With, what is it now, 650 million people spread across 50 states and a few territories covering a geographic area spanning an entire continent. With international corporations and divisive social and religious ideologies.

Now, I'm not saying that regulatory machines don't become beasts that eventually end up running just to feed themselves, but they always start from a need.

Yep. Our country was a lot "bigger" in 1776 when we had only 4 million people but it took 5 days to print and deliver a copy of the Declaration of Independence to General Washington after it was signed.

 

[Rossum]

How else could you be willing to accept it?

It would be the STARTING POINT of a one sided compromise in a constant legislative push across all levels of legislation.

So you'd rather leave vaping under the auspices of the Tobacco Control Act (and hence the Deeming) until we can get a better bill?

Who is likely to introduce a better bill? When? What are its chances of passage?

Heck, I don't think Hunter's bill has much chance; realistically I expect it to languish in some committee.

I'm glad I'm stocked up.

As am I.

That solves the problem for you, me, and many of the regulars here on ECF. But it does not solve the problem for the majority of present and future vapers out in the wild.

However, the Hunter bill would solve the problem for most of them, which is why I support it, despite the fact that it's not perfect.