Are Mechanical Mods Going the Way of the Dodo Bird?

[AndriaD]

Mech mod still has its place and still will, at least for me. While all my box mods couldn't detect my subtank resistance and display something like "check atty", my mech mods still let me vape it like a son of a ...... Tankers+mech mods are still a great combo on the road.

I don't go to B&M any more because looking at their outrageously overpriced, last generation gears just plainly make me sick to my stomach. Sorry, I don't support other people ripping me off. I don't think they care though since their ejuice are their bread and butter winners, and there are new suckers coming in everyday to buy their old gears. Good thing is I have been doing my own ejuice for quite a while now so I am done doing business with them. So, I don't really know what people use nowadays, mech mods or regulated mods.

Heh... on the nowadays rare occasions I visit a B&M (a driptip I didn't want to wait for!), I actually love to look at their overpriced hardware; it makes me feel SOOOOOOOOOO GOOD that I don't pay prices like that since I order everything online for the best price I can find -- thanks google! I don't even bother tasting their juice anymore, either; I already know I need more PG than anything they offer, and I also already know that I've got a few DIYs that are better than anything on their shelves.

But it's nice to have a location nearby for driptips. Those little suckers break so easily!

Andria

PS: I hadn't considered the issue of dexterity on building coils, as I'm not currently having any problems in that regard -- but I have, in the past, so the point is well-taken that they are very useful tools for those with hand problems; as my arthritis gets worse with age, I may have to invest in one of those gizmos myself.

 

[DaveP]

Technology is advancing but is still under the curve that would make mechs obsolete. It looks like from reading the posts that some just like the simplicity and lack of rules with a mech. You build a coil and vape ... no restrictions. If you understand the need for safety practices and are careful with a mech, it's a great way to vape with simplicity.

I like regulated mods as long as they let me vape the way I want to vape. I'm typically a 2 ohm 4v vaper who winds his own coils and stuffs them with Japanese cotton. I like bells and whistles as long as they aren't restrictive. If it's regulated, I want the regulation to include buck and boost.

My Provari V2 does everything I need. It's accurate in voltage regulation and built like a tank.

My Eleaf iStick is OK with a 2 ohm coil, but it's a little on the warm side with a fully charged battery because, for lack of a buck circuit, it can't lower the regulated voltage below the battery voltage. To me, that's poor economy in design for a $40 mod. As soon as a suitable medium cost alternative is available that meets my expectations, the iStick will go into a storage box next to my eGo tube mods.

 

[MattyTny]

I do not own an mechanical devices, but with all the information on coil possibilities and ideas people have for builds it seems mechanicals have a place in vaping. Working off a fixed voltage requires you to build to your liking so you don't really need to adjust, the adjustment is in the build itself. Personally I have no interest in getting a mechanical as of now since I am happy with my one regulated device, but if I were to get one it would because of: reliability, durability, ease of use, and form factor. Reliable in the sense that it will always work assuming you have proper contact and a good battery. Durability is obvious, a metal tube with a switch, no wiring, nothing to really break. Ease of use for the minimalistic design of a 510 pin and a switch. Form factor because mechs generally are small since it only needs to house a battery.

The beauty here is that we all have tastes and may prefer different things, so the mechanical will have a place.

 

[DaveP]

I started off with the Joye 510 and then the plain jane eGo that had no voltage adjustment. It just regulated the voltage to 3.4v and when it began to lose taste and vapor it was time to recharge. With the newer DNA type mods you can produce high watts and still adjust the voltage. I'll always be an under 10 watt vaper. If I can create a cloud that whites out my face in a mirror, I'm good. I can do that with a freshly dry burned coil and a new cotton wick on my 15 and 20 watt mods.

My initial reason for vaping was to get off cigarettes and recreate the experience of smoking using a safer method. Vaping meets those criteria.

 

[sando7]

i love both and i cannot lie,if it vapes i like it

 

[AndriaD]

i love both and i cannot lie,if it vapes i like it

Exactly. I love pizza, I love steak, I love salmon, but that doesn't mean I want to eat any of them every single day. There are all sorts of reasons to want to use a mech, and if you use a Kick, you even get a bit of safety, and somewhat of the abilty to regulate your vape to how you like it best -- though minus a bit of convenience, naturally, since it's more troublesome to open the mod and adjust a kick with a screwdriver, than push a button or two -- but once you know the wattage you prefer, then a mech+kick provides the same customizability as a regulated mod.

Kicks cost about $12-$15 (for the Smok ones -- the eVolv ones do cost a lot more), so when the electronics on the kick die, you toss it and replace it with a new $12-$15 kick -- much cheaper than replacing the whole mod because one itty bitty thing on a circuit board died. If you always vape below 15w, you don't need the more expensive eVolv Kicks. If you prefer to vape that way, you don't need the ability to sub-ohm, and you sure don't need a >50w mod. But, if you vape using a kick in a mech, but one day take a wild hair to try out sub-ohm vaping, just take the kick out, and voila, now you can sub-ohm -- if your batteries support that kind of amp draw. (But, I'm checking steam-engine, and a coil at .5 ohm, with the battery's nominal voltage of 3.7, is still only drawing 7.4 amps, easily within the ability of any 10A battery -- as just about any IMR 18650 would be -- you could even go to .4Ω and be within 10A; you wouldn't need the higher amp batteries unless you wanted to go to .3Ω or less.)

If you just can't be bothered to even try and understand battery safety, then yeah, a regulated is much better -- but even with those, if you're planning on actually using some of those astronomical wattages, you'd better know what your battery can safely deliver.

Andria

 

[UncleChuck]

You like to read into......... reminds me of another...... never mind.

Actually yes, many do DIY - Visit the e-liquid/DIY sub-forums
They also understand more than wrapping a wire tightly around a drill bit. Little things like Resistance, Air Flow, Proper Coil Placement, correct wicking, etc.
Many Mechanical Mod owners are very well versed in how Vaping actually works.

Now, I'd almost bet every Mech owner you saw coming in for Coil builds Bought their Mechanical Mod on the Persuasion of a Sales person or the Recommendation of a trusted friend. If they cannot build a coil, they were duped on either account.

You did notice I did not say ALL mechanical owners, right?
Heck there are some Vapors I have seen that no matter what they try to use, they worry me.

Edit to add: What you may be missing from my lack of information in original post is that Mechanical mods seem to be a Natural progression for many Vapors. Often the Glitz of a fancy Vape Shop environment has long worn off and they remain unseen therefor uncounted.

Mechs seem to come with experience.
Many that purchase Mechanical mods may have advanced to the point of no longer wishing to hang out at a B&M.
Self Reliance.

Out before this thread changes direction.

I gotta say, I think you are completely off-base here crxess. I'm not sure why you think being knowledgeable about coil building is no longer required when using a regulated device. A VW mod won't fix a bad build, you still need to know everything that you do when building for a mech mod. In fact with a VW device there are more variables that you can play around with compared to a mech.

Knowledge of the effects of airflow, coil placement, and wicking are required to the exact same degree with a regulated device as they are on a mech. Plenty of regulated users are also very well versed in how vaping actually works, I don't see how you can accurately draw any correlation between mech vs regulated and the knowledge of the user. My sister uses a Stingray with an Orchid and she doesn't even know how to re-wick the thing. That bit of info is about as useless as anyone elses anecdote on the subject.

Changing from a mech to an APV, or from an APV to a mech is a lateral move, not a vertical one. Each type of device offers some things the other doesn't, but neither is better than the other nor an indicator of the user's knowledge or experience. One just happens to fit a specifics vaper's needs/wants better than the other at a certain time. My personal progression (after cigalikes and eGos) was to old school semi-mechs, then 1st gen VW/VV devices, then to "modern" mechs, then to "modern" regulated devices. I'm not going to say one type of device is better than the other, only that with my current vaping style and currently available technology regulated devices are a better fit for me.

As far as self-reliance, unless you have a lathe and/or mill in your garage (few people are so lucky) and the skills to use it, you aren't self reliant. You still need to buy replacement parts from a retailer if something goes wonky on a mech. While something going wonky is probably less likely with a mech, if it does you're still at the mercy of vaping retailers.

Tone is hard to convey through text so I want you to know I'm truly not attacking you at all, it just seems there is a little case of bias here. You fancy yourself an advanced vaper and prefer mechs, so you think mechs are a sign of an advanced vaper. I don't think there is any truth to that, whether a person vapes a mech or regulated device is about as useful to determine their experience and knowledge of building as what color of shoes they wear

 

[HecticEnergy]

I gotta say, I think you are completely off-base here crxess. I'm not sure why you think being knowledgeable about coil building is no longer required when using a regulated device. A VW mod won't fix a bad build, you still need to know everything that you do when building for a mech mod. In fact with a VW device there are more variables that you can play around with compared to a mech.

Knowledge of the effects of airflow, coil placement, and wicking are required to the exact same degree with a regulated device as they are on a mech. Plenty of regulated users are also very well versed in how vaping actually works, I don't see how you can accurately draw any correlation between mech vs regulated and the knowledge of the user. My sister uses a Stingray with an Orchid and she doesn't even know how to re-wick the thing. That bit of info is about as useless as anyone elses anecdote on the subject.

Changing from a mech to an APV, or from an APV to a mech is a lateral move, not a vertical one. Each type of device offers some things the other doesn't, but neither is better than the other nor an indicator of the user's knowledge or experience. One just happens to fit a specifics vaper's needs/wants better than the other at a certain time. My personal progression (after cigalikes and eGos) was to old school semi-mechs, then 1st gen VW/VV devices, then to "modern" mechs, then to "modern" regulated devices. I'm not going to say one type of device is better than the other, only that with my current vaping style and currently available technology regulated devices are a better fit for me.

As far as self-reliance, unless you have a lathe and/or mill in your garage (few people are so lucky) and the skills to use it, you aren't self reliant. You still need to buy replacement parts from a retailer if something goes wonky on a mech. While something going wonky is probably less likely with a mech, if it does you're still at the mercy of vaping retailers.

Tone is hard to convey through text so I want you to know I'm truly not attacking you at all, it just seems there is a little case of bias here. You fancy yourself an advanced vaper and prefer mechs, so you think mechs are a sign of an advanced vaper. I don't think there is any truth to that, whether a person vapes a mech or regulated device is about as useful to determine their experience and knowledge of building as what color of shoes they wear

Everyone is definitely entitled to their opinion.
Personally I think that moving from Regulated to Mech is not a lateral move. I have a few brother in laws that picked up mechs recently, and I got worried. These guy's dont seem to know how these things actually work and one said to me "a battery is a battery - as long as it vapes" .. I was trying to warn him against buying batteries from B&Ms as their wholesalers have a reputation of picking up knockoffs which can be dangerous... Not all regulated mods will "catch" this error, and may burn up, but Mechs will definitely not stop when using a crappy battery. Neither one owns an ohm reader and just slaps builds into the mod without hesitation. Despite my best efforts to warn them of the potential hazards here, they continue to do this. One put his first build in with some 20ga wire a guy at the local vape shop gave him and he wondered why it wasn't really working... I punched the numbers into steam engine from what he told me about the build... it was something like a 0.06ohm build (not a typeo 6 hundredths of an ohm) with an LG HE2 battery... Pulling 60-70 amps out of the battery... Again, a regulated mod wouldn't let you pull anything near that.

On the less scary side of things - I think you are right - there is only one major variable beyond safety that mechs dont do for you, and that is allowing you to adjust your wattage to the build. This is about as big as coil placement because you get it all wicked up and ready to go, vape it on a fresh battery, only to find out its anemic.. then you have to tear it out and try again. on a regulated mod you just crank the wattage up a little until its vaping in a satisfying manner.

As I see it:

Regulated Mods:
Safety: (usually, unless you have a cloupor that likes to catch fire or something)
Builds: customize your power for the build instead of customizing your build for the battery
Consistent Vape: Consistent vape throughout the life of the battery
More Usable battery life: most regulated mods will bring you down to about 3.5v on the battery, I find on mechs I slap them in the charge queue around 3.7v
Onboard charging: Most suggest against this (especially on cheap mods) But it is nice to beable to slap your cellphone charger into it if you are running low or want to top off your charge.

Mech Mods:
"Apocalypse Proof": Less components to malfunction
Safety: what you are packin between your ears
Form Factor: Though I find single 18650 regulated box mods comfortable to hold, Mechs will always be smaller and stealthier
Price: because of its simple design there will always be cheaper mech mods available (not saying all are cheaper, just there are cheaper options)

I think anyone rebuilding should be aware of battery safety and ohms law. Mech mods just take the training wheels off IMO

 

[Ryedan]

I gotta say, I think you are completely off-base here crxess.

I'm not crxess, but I felt like commenting anyway UncleChuck

I agree that atty build design is important with any setup, but with a mechanical mod if you don't get the build right, you have to build new coils. With a regulated mod, you have the option to change the power and though it will not vape at your preferred power level, it will at least vape and probably well enough for most people if it's not way off.

As far as self-reliance goes, I feel mechanical mods are easier for the average person to maintain than regulated mods. Typically if a board component goes in a regulated mod most people will need to send it in for repair if that's possible or toss it. There are few failures of typical mechanical mods that can not be fixed with parts form a hardware store and possibly a drill and tap.

I've had my Reo Grand for the better part of a year now and it is still on the first bottle and O-ring. I wash it with soap and water monthly (inside and out) and I honestly expect it to last me another 10 years. Even if I couldn't get a new switch blade when that wears out, I can easily make one from a piece of appropriate shim stock. My first mechanical was a K100 that I used for almost a year. I replaced the switch spring in it with a spring from my neighborhood hardware store because it was getting a bit soft and it's good as new again.

IMO mechanical mods can't be beat if you want a zombie apocalypse mod, but they do need a bit more expertise in building attys for, or for choosing pre-built attys for.

 

[UncleChuck]

I'm not crxess, but I felt like commenting anyway UncleChuck

I agree that atty build design is important with any setup, but with a mechanical mod if you don't get the build right, you have to build new coils. With a regulated mod, you have the option to change the power and though it will not vape at your preferred power level, it will at least vape and probably well enough for most people if it's not way off.

As far as self-reliance goes, I feel mechanical mods are easier for the average person to maintain than regulated mods. Typically if a board component goes in a regulated mod most people will need to send it in for repair if that's possible or toss it. There are few failures of typical mechanical mods that can not be fixed with parts form a hardware store and possibly a drill and tap.

I've had my Reo Grand for the better part of a year now and it is still on the first bottle and O-ring. I wash it with soap and water monthly (inside and out) and I honestly expect it to last me another 10 years. Even if I couldn't get a new switch blade when that wears out, I can easily make one from a piece of appropriate shim stock. My first mechanical was a K100 that I used for almost a year. I replaced the switch spring in it with a spring from my neighborhood hardware store because it was getting a bit soft and it's good as new again.

IMO mechanical mods can't be beat if you want a zombie apocalypse mod, but they do need a bit more expertise in building attys for, or for choosing pre-built attys for.

I don't disagree at all with your assessment (or crxess's) of a mechanical's strengths, I only disagree that using a mechanical is a sign of a more advanced/knowledgeable/experienced vaper. Anyone can use a mech, just like anyone can use a regulated device. Some people probably shouldn't be using mechs because they lack the experience to safely and effectively use them, but they still use them so it negates any potential indication of a person's knowledge that is implied by the higher level of experience to use properly.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that a mechanical could only be a sign of a knowledgeable vaper if all mechs were being used safely and effectively, but they aren't. Plenty of people are using them in an unsafe manner, or run builds which don't perform as well as they could, so how do you know if a person is a knowledgeable mech user or an ignorant mech user? The mech means nothing in showing who's who. I still love mechanical devices, don't get me wrong, I'm not against them or feel that regulated devices are superior. Again, I just can't see how it's possible to draw any conclusion about a person's skill level by the lack of regulation on their mod.

Think of it this way, it is safe to say that someone driving a Buick GNX is more likely to be knowledgeable about cars than someone driving a Chevy Minivan. A GNX is expensive, hard to find, and spendy to maintain. It's very unlikely that someone ignorant of cars will "accidentally" buy a Grand National to use as their daily driver, where as it's very likely that someone ignorant of cars will pick up a cheap Chevy minivan to use as their DD.

Mechs don't have that aspect of "why else would someone own one?" or other barriers of entry that a GNX does. Mechs are super cheap, widely available, so it's very likely that someone who knows little about vaping will pick one up to use as their daily vape, and since you do in fact have tons of ignorant vapers running around with mechs it looses any value it could have had as an indication of someone's skill level.

I want to repeat again that I'm not attacking anyone here, you guys know I have a lot of respect for you, when I re-read my posts they sometimes sound as if they could be construed as being snide or something and I want to make sure they aren't taken that way!

 

[classwife]

Moved to Mechmods from APV Discussion

 

[crxess]

I gotta say, I think you are completely off-base here crxess. I'm not sure why you think being knowledgeable about coil building is no longer required when using a regulated device. A VW mod won't fix a bad build, you still need to know everything that you do when building for a mech mod. In fact with a VW device there are more variables that you can play around with compared to a mech.

Knowledge of the effects of airflow, coil placement, and wicking are required to the exact same degree with a regulated device as they are on a mech. Plenty of regulated users are also very well versed in how vaping actually works, I don't see how you can accurately draw any correlation between mech vs regulated and the knowledge of the user. My sister uses a Stingray with an Orchid and she doesn't even know how to re-wick the thing. That bit of info is about as useless as anyone elses anecdote on the subject.

Changing from a mech to an APV, or from an APV to a mech is a lateral move, not a vertical one. Each type of device offers some things the other doesn't, but neither is better than the other nor an indicator of the user's knowledge or experience. One just happens to fit a specifics vaper's needs/wants better than the other at a certain time. My personal progression (after cigalikes and eGos) was to old school semi-mechs, then 1st gen VW/VV devices, then to "modern" mechs, then to "modern" regulated devices. I'm not going to say one type of device is better than the other, only that with my current vaping style and currently available technology regulated devices are a better fit for me.

As far as self-reliance, unless you have a lathe and/or mill in your garage (few people are so lucky) and the skills to use it, you aren't self reliant. You still need to buy replacement parts from a retailer if something goes wonky on a mech. While something going wonky is probably less likely with a mech, if it does you're still at the mercy of vaping retailers.

Tone is hard to convey through text so I want you to know I'm truly not attacking you at all, it just seems there is a little case of bias here. You fancy yourself an advanced vaper and prefer mechs, so you think mechs are a sign of an advanced vaper. I don't think there is any truth to that, whether a person vapes a mech or regulated device is about as useful to determine their experience and knowledge of building as what color of shoes they wear

No problem, but you seem to have read much more into my post than I wrote.

I'm not sure why you think being knowledgeable about coil building is no longer required when using a regulated device.

Never said, nor do I think that.
I believe any person intending to build anything at any time needs to research and test their skill lever carefully. This applies to every possible adventure - Mech, Regulated mod, Microwave oven rebuild...........anything. Yes, I am a bit self reliant. Supporting 8 on one income requires making every penny and every item last as long as possible.

You fancy yourself an advanced vaper and prefer mechs, so you think mechs are a sign of an advanced vaper.

Not even, but I do enjoy using my Mechs in rotation with my Regulated mods.
A look at my collection would show 1/2 of my Mechanical Mods are Chipped. You don't Need a Fancy Box to have a nice mod that will keep the vape regulated.

What I WAS trying to point out to our OP is that People that have been using mechanical mods and have taken the time to learn the things they need to know to use them safely and properly are likely not going to walk into a B&M and ask - Can you build me a coil?

I would prefer, 10x over, if a New Vapor just has to have something fancy, that they get a uncomplicated regulated.
Nothing wrong with baby steps.
I crawled through just about every type of device I could find/afford and still use many of them - even if others consider them sub par.

Never thought a post I made would get stretched to such a degree

As always
Be safe and Vape on

 

[duc916]

90% of the people who have problems with their mech mods don't know the first thing about oxidation/cleaning and general preventive maintenance, and couldn't troubleshoot their way out of a paper bag. Troubleshooting simple problems with a multimeter is out of the question for most of these people, and when they don't get instant answers in this forum they write off the existence of mech mods with creative analogies like "dodo birds", then drift toward regulated mods with lots of idiot lights that resemble their BMW's. Nothing beats having an idiot light telling you to check your atomizer/battery/etc.

So yeah, in that sense, users who have some problem solving ability seem to be going the way of the dodo bird. ADD is also on the rise. Maybe not a coincidence... Does that answer your question?

 

[AzPlumber]

Moved to Mechmods from APV Discussion

I'd consider that a lateral move, could have been worse

 

[Ryedan]

I don't disagree at all with your assessment (or crxess's) of a mechanical's strengths, I only disagree that using a mechanical is a sign of a more advanced/knowledgeable/experienced vaper. Anyone can use a mech, just like anyone can use a regulated device. Some people probably shouldn't be using mechs because they lack the experience to safely and effectively use them, but they still use them so it negates any potential indication of a person's knowledge that is implied by the higher level of experience to use properly.

I totally agree with you UncleChuck. I did not say using mechanical mods indicated anything about the user. I did say 'they do need a bit more expertise in building attys for, or for choosing pre-built attys for' and I believe that's true, but it does not mean the user has that skill.

As I said in post #56, I switched to mech mods for the higher power when there were no high power regulated mods on the market. If I were in that position now, I'm pretty sure I would go regulated, though I really like Reos Mods and they don't come regulated. I do think I got better at build design because of vaping rebuildables on mech mods than I would have if I had done the same with regulated mods, but that's just my opinion and I have no way to prove it. It is nice to be comfortable with both.

I want to repeat again that I'm not attacking anyone here, you guys know I have a lot of respect for you, when I re-read my posts they sometimes sound as if they could be construed as being snide or something and I want to make sure they aren't taken that way!

No offense taken and none intended from my end either

 

[Zod]

I've gone through the similar steps of the cigalike blus, then 510s, egos, 1st gen semi mechs, 1st gen VV, newer full mechs and now full mechs plus high wattage regulateds. The way I mix the regulated and mech mods is the whole reason mechs will not die, at least in the near future. Size. I still don't see why reg mods are so freaking huge when they hold 1-3 18650 batteries. I'm not going to pack a Sigelei 150 along with me for a walk with the kids to the park. I'm taking the Stingray X with a Hobo on it. I carry a 2Six with a Dark Horse on me all day as the 26650 simply doesn't drop off through the day and it's quite pocketable. My VV stuff and BIG mechs like my 26650 stingray w/30mm RDA stay at my desk or in my truck. No one wants to carry a 2lb PV. These things are supposed to be portable above most all else.

Now when someone actually takes the time to shrink the silicon and casing to something more realistic and can manufacture a regulated mod that's only 10-15% bigger than the batteries running them? Then you'll see the relative death of mechanical mods. Honestly I can't wait for it and wish I had the resources to be the first. Hold 2 18650s in your hand and imagine how sweet a regulated mod only slightly bigger than that would be. The technology is already out there but not the funding. LCD readouts are razor thin and could easily sit behind the battery compartment. Circuitry is simple for vaping and doesn't need to be on huge boards. Even top end regulateds look like they were made in a garage when broken down. When will vaping cease to be demonized to the point big tech firms like Sony, Panasonic, Samsung, etc. shrink these things to their final form factor?

Of course we're only a decade into vaping (5 years myself) so in another 20 years we'd still be considered vaping noobs when XYZ finally arrives and we all think "how did we survive back then?!" My

 

[AndriaD]

90% of the people who have problems with their mech mods don't know the first thing about oxidation/cleaning and general preventive maintenance, and couldn't troubleshoot their way out of a paper bag. Troubleshooting simple problems with a multimeter is out of the question for most of these people, and when they don't get instant answers in this forum they write off the existence of mech mods with creative analogies like "dodo birds", then drift toward regulated mods with lots of idiot lights that resemble their BMW's. Nothing beats having an idiot light telling you to check your atomizer/battery/etc.

So yeah, in that sense, users who have some problem solving ability seem to be going the way of the dodo bird. ADD is also on the rise. Maybe not a coincidence... Does that answer your question?

ROFL!! So true. Good thing nicotine is a good treatment for ADD, eh??? I used to do some amateur tech support -- my online friends here in Atlanta caught on to the fact that I was a real geek who really understood PCs and MS-DOS, so I became "Andria's free tech support line" to quite a few of them. Yeah that got old fast, but some of them I was able to teach HOW to go about troubleshooting and fixing their PC issues. Others, I felt like telling them to take their computer back to the store for a refund, because they were far too stupid to have a computer. I've felt like telling my mom that, quite a few times.

Andria

 

[VIadTheInhaler]

Opinions are like a.... Well you know the saying. Personally I prefer mechs, but I can understand why some would prefer a regulated mod. Different strokes for different folks. The latest and greatest will always become more popular at that time. Some will always go back to mechs, some won't. Some will never switch from one to the other, some will. I don't see either becoming extinct anytime soon, but that's just my opinion.

 

[duc916]

No one wants to carry a 2lb PV. These things are supposed to be portable above most all else.

Thank you!



The OP was probably ....-hurt the last time I posted this image, but this is truly what you look like to me.

 

[Darryl Licht]

Moved to Mechmods from APV Discussion

Not really a thread designed for the mech forum, this is a general APV Q!

By throwing this into the Mechmods subforum it will certainly skew the responses...