Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!

[cozzicon]

It's a food additive that has horrific consequences. Take in too much nicotine and you get jittery or the headache from hell. Take in too much diacetyl and your lungs start turning to stone. There have been multiple healthcare professionals in this thread that have said NONONONONO to any amount of diacetyl inhaled. You used the example of the popcorn workers. What about the people that got it just cooking popcorn at home? If you get crushed by a boulder weighing 2000 pounds, that doesn't make a 1000 pound boulder safe to have fall on you, which is the argument you are trying to use with diacetyl; it took the popcorn workers 220 ppm so obviously that is the dangerous level. You don't know if their lungs started to fibrose at 220 or at 10.

It is not safe to be inhaled in the continuous manner we do it. It is one of the few ingredients in our flavoring that HAS been tested for inhalation and the results are not to do it. Most of switched to vaping to better our health, and inhaling something down to cause the devastation that diacetyl does is not the way to do it. In addition, the desire of some vendors to deny and then defend their use of the ingredient is somewhat frightening and could understandably cause some to question the integrity.

And I will say again, my beef is not with Flavourart. Flavourart does not make flavorings for inhalation. Flavourart makes food flavorings, and there is nothing wrong with diacetyl being eaten- the documentation Flavourart has available on their web site makes that clear. So it's not a dig at the good ol' family man Max the Ph.D. chemist at Flavourart; he created a product that is safe for use as intended. That is his job. He is not a flavor designer for inhalation purposes, and I am sure that even if a flavoring company existed solely for the purpose of creating flavoring agents for inhalation, diacetyl would not be on the ingredient risk.

You want to use it, fine. But vendors owe the consumer the opportunity to spare their lungs any further damage by letting them know what products it is in so that the choice is in our hands. We spent too many years letting the cigarette industry decide what we can inhale. We're vaping so we can take back control of what we inhale into our lungs, and allowing vendors to hide behind skirts made up of creative statistics as opposed to making them stand in the face of scientific fact is nothing but a blatant attempt to wrest that control back away from us.

You don't have scientific fact. You have an industrial situation at 20 ppm up to 100 ppm. And ONE instance of a consumer microwaving themselves 2 bags of popcorn a day, in a sealed kitchen, who got lung disease.

The only thing that isn't anecdotal evidence is what happened at the factory.

If your erring on the side of safety fine. But everything else in your statement is faulty argument.

Do what you want- I encourage you to do so. But from an academic standpoint this issue is quite overblown.

 

[rolygate]

Let's everybody stay calm, please.

I am very happy this issue is now being discussed and I would like it to progress to its natural conclusion - suppliers voluntarily providing lab test results for their products.

It's a simple and basic requirement, and any supplier who says this isn't possible for some reason is taking an indefensible position. Some suppliers are having daily batch tests done.

....... But attacking someone for asking a legitimate question is unfortunately the norm here and i wish ECF would put a stop to it. One reason it escalates is that vendors are allowed to have forums or chat rooms that are closed to everyone but approved members. I think this acts to encourage cliques and can promote mob attacks on members not in their group.

GD, ECF is not going to stop discussion or statements or actions by or positions taken by suppliers. We should all regard statements or actions by suppliers as extremely valuable information. If a Supplier takes a public position on an issue like this, surely it is very useful information for you? It certainly seems that way to me...

 

[rolygate]

I think asking a vendor if they use diacetyl is not really the route to take. I think the question to a vendor would be to ask them what brand flavorings they use in their juices. .......

SB, I don't care what any flavor manufacturer, flavor integrator, or e-liquid supplier says to me. It is of no value whatsoever since they may be misinformed.

All I need to see is the lab tests that prove there are no unwanted contaminants in their product. A very simple requirement.

SHOW ME THE LAB TESTS

 

[rolygate]

The core of the problem is that we are using food flavorings. Some food flavorings or ingredients must not be inhaled. There is no safe level of consumption for some of these possible ingredients, they must all be eliminated. The only way to know for sure if they are present or not is by lab tests that specifically look for these contaminants.

If no lab tests are available, then one way to try and avoid dangerous ingredients is to deal with people who are up front with their methodology and offer full disclosure. Only information from persons who are qualified to talk about the issue are of any validity, here. In this situation there is no point in listening to anyone except those qualified to make statements on their ingredients. I only know of two that fit this profile: Max at FA and Nick at DV. FA have disclosed which of their flavorings contains diacetyl, so you can avoid those flavors; and Nick at DV fully discloses his situation (which is that as a chemist he appreciates the problems and does everything he can in the lab to remove diacetyl from the few flavors he has that still may contain it).

In the absence of any lab tests on flavors you can't do much else. Because of their qualifications and their disclosures I have no problems with using FA and DV for my mixing.

As regards volume producers of e-liquid, so far I only know of two that have regular lab tests done: eSmoke and Intellicig (Ecopure). Therefore it seems logical to use those bases plus the known safe flavoring suppliers if you wanted to be absolutely sure that your mixes are as safe as possible.

It should be noted that Dekang is thought to be a responsible e-liquid supplier, they can at least provide the MSDS for all their ingredients, however I have seen no evidence of lab test reports.

As far as other suppliers are concerned - statements of any kind carry no weight. Only lab tests are of any value.

If you want to know which e-liquid suppliers have safe products, just ask for the lab test to prove it. No other information is needed, or indeed has any value. If an e-liquid supplier won't get lab tests done, even just occasionally, to check that what his sources have sent him is safe - what does that tell you about them?

 

[Abe]

I have a received an email about this thread and will answer it shortly. There are various flavourart flavourings that contain diacetyl, they do disclose which ones and are very open about it, this does not mean it is safe to inhale, it simply allows the consumer choose if they wish to use this liquid. We can withdraw the sale of these liquids if this is deemed the best course of action.

Our premixed range comes from Hangsen, I don't believe they use diacetyl but I can find out.

 

[rolygate]

Here is some info that was asked for.

diacetyl = 2,3-butanedione.

2,3-Pentanedione (acetylpropionyl) is a diacetyl substitute that may have the same health implications.

2,4-pentanedione (Acetoacetone, acetylacetone, diacetylmethane, pentanedione) should certainly not be used, it is highly toxic.

Note that you can find safety info for many materials by googling eg 'MSDS 2,3-butanedione'.

 

[SimpleSins]

I have a received an email about this thread and will answer it shortly. There are various flavourart flavourings that contain diacetyl, they do disclose which ones and are very open about it, this does not mean it is safe to inhale, it simply allows the consumer choose if they wish to use this liquid. We can withdraw the sale of these liquids if this is deemed the best course of action.

Our premixed range comes from Hangsen, I don't believe they use diacetyl but I can find out.

My own opinion, for what it's worth, that there is no need for your to stop selling them, but there should be easier indication of which ones contain diacetyl, maybe an asterisk beside the ones that contain it and a link somewhere to the Flavourart chart showing the amount. That way people could make their own decision about what risk level they are comfortable with.

And if you could find out about diacetyl in your premixed juices, that would be appreciated.

 

[harmony]

This is very concerning. I just read all 21 pages of this thread.
Is it possible for us to set up a central location where we can keep the thread clean for just info about which vendors have shown lab results/responses that they do not use the flavorings with diacetyl?
My concern is that there is so much useful information to be had but it is found in between personal opinions and in some cases healthy debating.
If the first post could be a copy of the letter that the OP sent out or just a FAQ in bullet point format, then it will be easy to decipher. We could utilize the thread to post either replies from suppliers or recap convos with suppliers.
If you are a newb then it may be challenging to sift through all of the threads and posts to get to the meat and potatoes.
Or if you have ADD like me it could be equally as challenging.
Thanks!

 

[Antwoord]

Good Prophets has both an MSDS and a COA for their U.S. Liquid linked right on the front page. There doesn't seem to be an analysis of their flavorings though, only the nicotine solution. I don't think it would be a far stretch for them to test for the other chemicals discussed in this thread.

 

[rolygate]

@Fiddles
Every e-liquid supplier should have lab tests done on their product - there is simply no excuse not to.

The problem is: it's expensive. However a trade association could arrange discounts for their members. This is a valuable function of a trade association.

It's up for discussion how often to do tests, and for what proportion of products, and so on and so forth. But one thing is absolutely inescapable: e-liquid suppliers need to have some sort of lab testing done. Otherwise nobody knows what is in their product and that includes themselves. Assurances, promises, explanations, guarantees from their sources are all worthless.

Only the proof counts.

 

[Antwoord]

I totally agree, and wanted to really thank you for all the input you've shared here. It's really good stuff to be aware of on a personal basis, and I think it also strengthens the industry as a whole. I think a trade organization is absolutely the right way to go as well.

 

[smokie]

We're already on it. I have not found it yet in our flavors. But I put in an inquiry to both chineese juice mfgs yesterday. Our USA juice doesn't have it for sure.

You should be careful about perfumes and dyes as well.
__________________
Smokeless Cigarettes | Electronic Cigarettes | E-Cig

 

[pcijohn]

This is very concerning. I just read all 21 pages of this thread.
Is it possible for us to set up a central location where we can keep the thread clean for just info about which vendors have shown lab results/responses that they do not use the flavorings with diacetyl?
My concern is that there is so much useful information to be had but it is found in between personal opinions and in some cases healthy debating.
If the first post could be a copy of the letter that the OP sent out or just a FAQ in bullet point format, then it will be easy to decipher. We could utilize the thread to post either replies from suppliers or recap convos with suppliers.
If you are a newb then it may be challenging to sift through all of the threads and posts to get to the meat and potatoes.
Or if you have ADD like me it could be equally as challenging.
Thanks!

I agree with this
There should be a much easier and concise thread listing the requested information to eliminate speculations.

 

[rolygate]

When the Suppliers start to post their lab test reports, be sure we'll applaud that and post a list or whatever else seems a good idea.

Anything else is pointless. He said she said doesn't cut it.

This has been the 600 pound gorilla in the room that nobody wanted to talk about. I'm glad it's out, the time was right.

 

[shanagan]

You don't have scientific fact. You have an industrial situation at 20 ppm up to 100 ppm. And ONE instance of a consumer microwaving themselves 2 bags of popcorn a day, in a sealed kitchen, who got lung disease.

The only thing that isn't anecdotal evidence is what happened at the factory.

If your erring on the side of safety fine. But everything else in your statement is faulty argument.

Do what you want- I encourage you to do so. But from an academic standpoint this issue is quite overblown.

FWIW, it was a kitchen, not a clean room, right? So when you say "sealed" it's not like he was standing in a 10x10 box with zero ventilation.

Additionally, did you notice this one: The NIOSH scientists found workers with occupational lung disease at five of the six plants; one affected worker was employed in a mixing area where mean personal exposure to diacetyl was 0.02 ppm.

From: http://defendingscience.org/case_studies/upload/Kanwal.pdf

 

[shanagan]

Further, here's the thing - it doesn't have to be an ingredient. It is not integral to the product, and by eliminating its use in nicotine liquid entirely we have absolutely nothing to lose. Why even present an argument in its defense? Just to be contrary? Just to be anti-regulatory? I honestly don't understand.

 

[shanagan]

I received a response from Max at FlavourArt this morning (who does indeed seem to be a lovely gentleman):

Hello Shannon
Thanks for email and to recall us due diligence.

That list has to updated on regular basis, and lately we have overlooked it, even if very few changes happened.
We removed coffee, as the quality we are selling now is diacetyl free, and added cappuccino (0,001%) and Vanilla classic.

An update date is shown now on that page.

Kind regards

Max
--------------------------

So the diacetyl information page is updated, and Max appreciated the contact and reminder to update his information. (Frankly, how easy was that? Very easy.)

I replied that I hoped he would urge his vendors to make the diacetyl information public, as vaping becomes more mainstream we all will be fighting an uphill battle with various health regulatory agencies around the world.

 

[harmony]

When the Suppliers start to post their lab test reports, be sure we'll applaud that and post a list or whatever else seems a good idea.

Anything else is pointless. He said she said doesn't cut it.

This has been the 600 pound gorilla in the room that nobody wanted to talk about. I'm glad it's out, the time was right.

Okay that sounds like a good plan.
So please bear with me when I ask the next question...
What do you think people like myself should do? I am only 4 weeks into vaping, and am overloaded with info that I have read on the forum. I am feeling panicky right now as I am not sure what to do to make sure I am being as cautious as possible.
Any insight anyone could provide me would be greatly appreciated. I am freaking out right now.

 

[Panini]

Further, here's the thing - it doesn't have to be an ingredient. It is not integral to the product, and by eliminating its use in nicotine liquid entirely we have absolutely nothing to lose. Why even present an argument in its defense? Just to be contrary? Just to be anti-regulatory? I honestly don't understand.

This X a bazillion.

Seriously guys. Is this the hill you want to die on? Defending diacetyl? We need to be very careful about what we say is "ok" here. You realize it will take one case of bronchiolitis obliterans to completely demonize e-cigs, right? You realize it takes one person to be worried about "second-hand diacetyl" to cause a huge public stir, right? If you aren't concerned for yourself, at least realize that public perception on this (and it could potentially become as prevelent as the "antifreeze thing") could be damaging to the industry as a whole. I believe it's irresponsible from a health standpoint...but it's also irresponsible from an industry standpoint.

The fewer battles we have, the better.

 

[GoodDog]

When I talked to Tom at Capella to confirm they don't use diacetyl he said that there is no reason for a company to still use this ingredient in flavorings and he was surprised some still do. I wish I would have queried him more about that statement.

New members have so much information to take in I worry that this won't be high on their reading list. And what about vapors that don't come to ECF? I prefer seeing this ingredient not allowed in eLiquid.

Few start up businesses have an automatic 40,000+ customer base available to them for nearly nothing and customers that act as free salespeople. Providing diacetyl-free eLiquid, testing their juice and having spec sheets available is the least they can do in return. The ones that don't better have good product liability insurance.