Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[englishmick]

Feels like he was just trying to appease someone and cover his tail from blame instead of standing firm in honest truth and sincerity. The way he conducted himself still has it look that vapers are the bad guys. Nothing was corrected or taught.

That's what I thought when I read his statement. It fits with their all-in agreement to go along with age limits and flavor limits. They think they can improve their image with the anti-vaping forces and stand out from the other vaping companies by being eagerly cooperative. They become the only company that can be trusted to follow the rules if they are allowed to go on doing business. juul gained a bad reputation when they came to be the face of the teen epidemic so they have some ground to make up.

Not sure it will work though.

 

[zoiDman]

It's Funny how Kevin got Shade thrown on him when he said this...

"Don't vape. Don't use Juul," Juul CEO Kevin Burns told Tony Dokoupil in an interview that aired Thursday on "CBS This Morning."

"Don't start using nicotine if you don't have a preexisting relationship with nicotine," he said. "Don't use the product. You're not our target consumer."

But when I see a Non-Smoker in the Newbie section, I hear a Lot of Members here say about the Same Thing.

LOL

 

[dreamvaper]

It's funny how juul as a company is trying to look like an angel adding the "block the device" around schools option to C1 model and saying things like their Ceo did recently, but at the same time they sell millions of devices and cartridges for them full of 50mg nic salts which are causing addiction Very fast and the addiction is pretty strong, esp. for younger people. Nobody needs 50mg nic salts! People who used to smoke 3 packs of cigs a day were completely fine switching to 20-24mg nic e-juices (not salts).

 

[Eskie]

It's funny how juul as a company is trying to look like an angel adding the "block the device" around schools option to C1 model and saying things like their Ceo did recently, but at the same time they sell millions of devices and cartridges for them full of 50mg nic salts which are causing addiction Very fast and the addiction is pretty strong, esp. for younger people. Nobody needs 50mg nic salts! People who used to smoke 3 packs of cigs a day were completely fine switching to 20-24mg nic e-juices (not salts).

But they're not the only one out these with a high nic product. When I stopped smoking a pack and a half a day habit almost 5 years ago I used Vuse. All I knew was it contained nicotine and some vague tobacco flavor so it seemed OK. Later I found out it contained 48 mg nic, no idea if that was freebase or salt (probably freebase with the throat hit it gave). I also didn't even realize it was a lot of nicotine, I thought they were all like that. It was the only product that gave me enough of a hit to stop smoking. Only months later when I figured out what vaping was like a little better did I go the clearo 24 mg nic route.

These pods are tiny, containing less than 1 ml of juice. The volume released during a draw is quite small. I don't know if testing has already shown this, but I expect a single draw on a pod with 50 mg nic salt may deliver the same amount of nic as a somewhat larger draw on a clearo with 24 mg freebase nic. High concentration in a small volume gives you size advantages over larger devices delivering more vapor but with a lower concentration of nic making it a wash.

As for the "we want to save the children too" campaign, how else could they respond? It's a solid PR corporate approach to facing bad publicity about your product or corporate practices right out of the Corporate Spin manuals. Folks follow those damage control guidelines for a reason ,they work.

 

[mikepetro]

It's funny how juul as a company is trying to look like an angel adding the "block the device" around schools option to C1 model and saying things like their Ceo did recently, but at the same time they sell millions of devices and cartridges for them full of 50mg nic salts which are causing addiction Very fast and the addiction is pretty strong, esp. for younger people. Nobody needs 50mg nic salts! People who used to smoke 3 packs of cigs a day were completely fine switching to 20-24mg nic e-juices (not salts).

Ummmm, I have been vaping 36mgl ever since I started. I inhaled cigars, 36mgl was what it took to keep the nico-demon off my azz.

 

[stratus.vaping]

Lordy, what a mess. Seems to get worse every day.

We only have a crash out Brexit looming and the threat of no perishable foodstuffs, fuel, medicines etc not to mention parliamentary chaos...

Leaving the country and going way, way East before that happens.

Actually I'd prefer to leave the planet and live with the Clangers ( hands up, who knows what they are?) , but the Dan Dare dreams of my boyhood haven't matured into reality, yet.

 

[dreamvaper]

I don't know if testing has already shown this, but I expect a single draw on a pod with 50 mg nic salt may deliver the same amount of nic as a somewhat larger draw on a clearo with 24 mg freebase nic

yes, the pod is small and total amount of nic consumed from it might be comparable to the bigger tank with 24mg normal nic juice But the problem is not only with the amount of nic, it's Salt which is delivering nic. to the system much faster with a bigger hit - that's what I believe is the most danger in the long run for younger ppl cause the addiction from vaping high nic salts are also stronger.

I have been vaping 36mgl ever since I started. I inhaled cigars, 36mgl was what it took to keep the nico-demon off my azz.

Ppl are different, maybe in your case the 36mg was the best amount, but I saw some examples as I mentioned, heavy smokers - 3pcks/day smokers were OK on 20/24mg nic juices.
Also what bothers me - with normal juice you are advised to lower the nic. concentration with time, going to 0 and eventually quit vaping. With juul in US there is only 1 option - 50mg, no lower dosage is available.

 

[Eskie]

yes, the pod is small and total amount of nic consumed from it might be comparable to the bigger tank with 24mg normal nic juice But the problem is not only with the amount of nic, it's Salt which is delivering nic. to the system much faster with a bigger hit - that's what I believe is the most danger in the long run for younger ppl cause the addiction from vaping high nic salts are also stronger.



Ppl are different, maybe in your case the 36mg was the best amount, but I saw some examples as I mentioned, heavy smokers - 3pcks/day smokers were OK on 20/24mg nic juices.
Also what bothers me - with normal juice you are advised to lower the nic. concentration with time, going to 0 and eventually quit vaping. With juul in US there is only 1 option - 50mg, no lower dosage is available.

The only issue I'll raise is that even among teens/YA who try a Juul a few times, the vast majority do not advance to daily use and/or addiction (at least based on the survey data collected to date). Same way teens play with cigarettes and few go on to be regular daily smokers. There are individual variations making some more prone to abusing a substance than others.

If these were only used by smokers, then the high nic (freebase or salt) is the best way to transition off. If non-smokers play with these high salt nic devices, there may be a small risk of developing an addiction which they didn't need. I do wonder how many of those who are taken in by nicotine would have otherwise gotten the same nicotine experience from cigarettes and ended up on that instead of a Juul.

Not one word of that should suggest in any way that a non-smoker or teen should EVER pick one up or be allowed to buy one. I'll say the same about cigarettes. But I can't point at Juul or other high nic salt providers out there and say they're it doing to get people hooked. However, any deceptive ad or marketing that in any way encourages a teen or non-smoker to play with this stuff should have the hammer brought down on.

 

[dreamvaper]

there may be a small risk of developing an addiction which they didn't need

We need a real research to properly claim how small/big that risk really is.
But looking on the amount of the market acclaimed by Juul + amount of young ppl regularly vaping it and how fast it did happen, I believe that the risk of creating a nic salt addiction is not that small at all. Yes, it's still much better than doing cigs as far as we know, but it's specifically made to get ppl addicted otherwise there were lower nic salts and non salts options available, including 0 nic ones - that is my opinion.

 

[mikepetro]

yes, the pod is small and total amount of nic consumed from it might be comparable to the bigger tank with 24mg normal nic juice But the problem is not only with the amount of nic, it's Salt which is delivering nic. to the system much faster with a bigger hit - that's what I believe is the most danger in the long run for younger ppl cause the addiction from vaping high nic salts are also stronger.



Ppl are different, maybe in your case the 36mg was the best amount, but I saw some examples as I mentioned, heavy smokers - 3pcks/day smokers were OK on 20/24mg nic juices.
Also what bothers me - with normal juice you are advised to lower the nic. concentration with time, going to 0 and eventually quit vaping. With juul in US there is only 1 option - 50mg, no lower dosage is available.

Lets face it, the Juuls give a non-smoker a buzz. Teens have been chasing a buzz since long before I was born, and will continue to do so long after I leave this plain.

I am not defending Juul, they saw a market segment where they could prosper, and exploited it. But I dont blame it on "salts", Salts have been around for 10 years or more, it only recently got publicity, mainly because its what a successful company used.

 

[Eskie]

We need a real research to properly claim how small/big that risk really is.
But looking on the amount of the market acclaimed by Juul + amount of young ppl regularly vaping it and how fast it did happen, I believe that the risk of creating a nic salt addiction is not that small at all. Yes, it's still much better than doing cigs as far as we know, but it's specifically made to get ppl addicted otherwise there were lower nic salts and non salts options available, including 0 nic ones - that is my opinion.

I agree, more research and population surveillance is needed. I will say from my personal experience that I tried 35 mg nic salt in a pod 6 months ago (?) and couldn't stop coughing for a half hour. I can't understand how a non-smoker could even take a draw off it and say "wow! That was fun!!".

Then again, I guess the same could be said about the rest of us the first time we smoked a cigarette and coughed like crazy.

 

[Eskie]

Published today in The Lancet
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/...9)31884-7/fulltext?dgcid=raven_jbs_etoc_email

title:
Nicotine without smoke: fighting the tobacco epidemic with harm reduction

Then this is the editorial they just had to throw in
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/...9)31998-1/fulltext?dgcid=raven_jbs_etoc_email

title:
Philip Morris International: money over morality?

Both are free of charge, but the article needs a free registration account.

Edit: for those unaware, The Lancet is a prominent journal in medicine, viewed as significant as the New England Journal of Medicine and The British Medical journal. This is serious, mainstream publication that widely read in the medical community.

 

[englishmick]

This is interesting. I've heard concerns expressed about Vanillin and cinnamon before. I don't worry about nicotine but I do worry a bit about flavorings since there are so many of them and we really don't know much about them. This study points to a mechanism whereby some flavoring chemicals could have dodgy effects. It's likely to be picked up by the anti-vaping movement.

Formation of flavorant–propylene Glycol Adducts With Novel Toxicological Properties in Chemically Unstable E-Cigarette Liquids

 

[Bronze]

This is interesting. I've heard concerns expressed about Vanillin and cinnamon before. I don't worry about nicotine but I do worry a bit about flavorings since there are so many of them and we really don't know much about them. This study points to a mechanism whereby some flavoring chemicals could have dodgy affects. It's likely to be picked up by the anti-vaping movement.

Formation of flavorant–propylene Glycol Adducts With Novel Toxicological Properties in Chemically Unstable E-Cigarette Liquids

Switching from smoking to vaping is a bit like standing in the middle of a desolate road. A car is headed right at us so we decide to jump into the other lane. It's possible another car is coming in the other lane but our chances are a whole lot better than where we were.

 

[Baditude]

The effect of e-cigarette aerosol emissions on respiratory health: a narrative review. - PubMed - NCBI

"...The findings of this review indicate that ECs under normal conditions of use demonstrate far fewer respiratory risks than combustible tobacco cigarettes. EC users and smokers considering ECs have the right to be informed about the relative risks of EC use, and to be made aware that findings of studies published by the media are not always reliable. Expert opinion: Growing evidence supports the relative safety of EC emission aerosols for the respiratory tract compared to tobacco smoke."

 

[Tabac man]

Lordy, what a mess. Seems to get worse every day.

We only have a crash out Brexit looming and the threat of no perishable foodstuffs, fuel, medicines etc not to mention parliamentary chaos...

Leaving the country and going way, way East before that happens.

Actually I'd prefer to leave the planet and live with the Clangers ( hands up, who knows what they are?) , but the Dan Dare dreams of my boyhood haven't matured into reality, yet.

I remember them. Quite trippy really.

 

[Dr. Seuss]

I’m glad that if you sift through what all is presented you can find some more grounded information, that’s good, but am I the only one that gets stuck on what seems to be the issue is the children getting ahold of what they aren’t supposed to have?

That’s the reason, from my understanding, the war cry was let out. It seems like the focus is on the product instead of how the product is being handled. I’m splitting hairs here, but not really.

Isn’t this whole thing about kids getting what they shouldn’t be getting?

Adults know what nicotine is, like they know what alcohol is. They don’t sell booze and smokes at the gym, nobody finds that strange. What’s the problem? Kids getting vapes. How are they getting them? There’s where your focus should be.

I don’t think they really care about kids getting vapes.

Edit: That’s pretty much just me ranting to myself. I think we’re probably all eye to eye on what’s going on. Legal stuff is my one weakness because I require very simple laid out logic. Things have to make sense otherwise I don’t understand what’s going on.

 

[Eskie]

Nah, vaping itself was always in the crosshairs. The children became useful ammunition.

 

[CMD-Ky]

There is a mind set currently.
Find a "problem" product and then set about banning the offending product so that those who had nothing to do with the problematic use are punished.

I’m glad that if you sift through what all is presented you can find some more grounded information, that’s good, but am I the only one that gets stuck on what seems to be the issue is the children getting ahold of what they aren’t supposed to have?

That’s the reason, from my understanding, the war cry was let out. It seems like the focus is on the product instead of how the product is being handled. I’m splitting hairs here, but not really.

Isn’t this whole thing about kids getting what they shouldn’t be getting?

Adults know what nicotine is, like they know what alcohol is. They don’t sell booze and smokes at the gym, nobody finds that strange. What’s the problem? Kids getting vapes. How are they getting them? There’s where your focus should be.

I don’t think they really care about kids getting vapes.

Edit: That’s pretty much just me ranting to myself. I think we’re probably all eye to eye on what’s going on. Legal stuff is my one weakness because I require very simple laid out logic. Things have to make sense otherwise I don’t understand what’s going on.

 

[englishmick]

I’m glad that if you sift through what all is presented you can find some more grounded information, that’s good, but am I the only one that gets stuck on what seems to be the issue is the children getting ahold of what they aren’t supposed to have?

That’s the reason, from my understanding, the war cry was let out. It seems like the focus is on the product instead of how the product is being handled. I’m splitting hairs here, but not really.

Isn’t this whole thing about kids getting what they shouldn’t be getting?

Adults know what nicotine is, like they know what alcohol is. They don’t sell booze and smokes at the gym, nobody finds that strange. What’s the problem? Kids getting vapes. How are they getting them? There’s where your focus should be.

I don’t think they really care about kids getting vapes.

Teenagers get booze and smokes. The response isn't to remove those things from the market.

I think the difference is that they can't ban cigarettes and booze, but they can ban vapes. And there was already a powerful movement in place to ban vaping, since long before the teen "epidemic" came along. They jumped on teen usage as a tool to add to their existing campaign.

Not to say teen vaping isn't a problem. Probably is, although the size of the problem and the level of addictiveness seem to be somewhat overstated. But banning vaping isn't a great solution. Apart from taking away that option from adult smokers the best case scenario is that kids can no longer get regular nic vapes. But they will still be able to get cigarettes, and other types of vapes from the guy on the corner. Or the next big trendy thing. Is that the best we can do?

I think teen vaping could be addressed in more effective ways.