Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[mikepetro]

I think China, Inc will happily ignore the FDA. Unfortunately, their standards and business ethics are questionable.

Agreed, and their is a large International market that even US companies will still support.

I used to think we could get our hardware from the THC vape market post PMTA, but after this horrible outbreak of deaths and illness I now fear that the THC vape market will also be shut down.

 

[Baditude]

I'm kind of hoping you made that up. I'm also hoping you don't really have that much free time.

No, not made up. I don't have that much imagination.

 

[Jman8]

The risk to such companies would be too great. The Feds would ruin their lives if they got caught.

Don't get caught.

The Feds (FDA) are ruining their livelihoods. Court battles will likely ruin them financially, but I think we all hope they take that risk (for every vapers' sake).

And again, we are in a war, are we not?

Anyway, don't need to debate you. I kinda think some will, some won't, and that we may never know who's who given the obvious need for discretion.

 

[cats5365]

I used to think we could get our hardware from the THC vape market post PMTA, but after this horrible outbreak of deaths and illness I now fear that vape market will also be shut down.

I felt the same way about the Green's being a source of the hardware supplies as a backup in case the stockpile was found to be missing something. Granted, the states would tax it up the wazoo, but if you were short on something, it was an option.

I never expected the Green's to be the ones to actually take us all down with them. I'm still waiting to see how the Feds are going to handle the cannabis products since they are still federally illegal, and the states have been given a pass on enforcement by the Feds. I don't think the deeming, as it exists right now, can go after the Green's. The question is, are the Feds prepared to make cannabis legal so the FDA can regulate it, or drop the hammer on all of it and force the medical side to go through the FDA drug rules while the DEA hits the recreational stuff as it was in the past?

 

[mikepetro]

Don't get caught.
I kinda think some will, some won't, and that we may never know who's who given the obvious need for discretion.

That works for hardware, more/less, but it doesnt work for juice. I want to KNOW where my juice is coming from. I can see things happening in a nicotine black-market just like they are happening in the THC black-market today. Tainted batches from less than scrupulous and/or knowledgeable suppliers, causing illness and even death. Imagine "Dank Nic Juice".......

Hell, even in our legal market, about 8 years ago a reputable supplier was putting out juice that was triple or more the advertised nic concentration. Our own community (NOT the government) called them out on it. This was an honest mistake from a known vendor, and it got rectified because there was traceability.

I would never buy underground juice. No traceability by design. I have made my own arrangements so that I never have to.

 

[Jman8]

That works for hardware, more/less, but it doesnt work for juice. I want to KNOW where my juice is coming from. I can see things happening in a nicotine black-market just like they are happening in the THC black-market today. Tainted batches from less than scrupulous and/or knowledgeable suppliers, causing illness and even death. Imagine "Dank Nic Juice".......

Hell, even in our legal market, about 8 years ago a reputable supplier was putting out juice that was triple or more the advertised nic concentration. Our own community (NOT the government) called them out on it. This was an honest mistake from a known vendor, and it got rectified because there was traceability.

I would never buy underground juice. No traceability by design. I have made my own arrangements so that I never have to.

Whatever arrangements you've made, that would technically be underground market, just that you'll know where it's coming from.

I intend on buying from that market. I fully expect there to be tainted products and bad incidents, but also for there to be around 90% satisfied customers receiving relatively good product.

 

[mikepetro]

Whatever arrangements you've made, that would technically be underground market, just that you'll know where it's coming from.

I intend on buying from that market. I fully expect there to be tainted products and bad incidents, but also for there to be around 90% satisfied customers receiving relatively good product.

Stock up on some nic now and you wont need to risk being part of that 10%.

 

[Jman8]

Stock up on some nic now and you wont need to risk being part of that 10%.

But do risk being thought of as a distributor with that much stash in your possession. You then have to become super discreet about your own vaping. IMO, there will be very little difference between hoarders and distributors, and legally none, I would think. Though I await the inevitable court battles from people claiming their 10 liters of nicotine are strictly for personal use.

 

[mikepetro]

But do risk being thought of as a distributor with that much stash in your possession. You then have to become super discreet about your own vaping. IMO, there will be very little difference between hoarders and distributors, and legally none, I would think. Though I await the inevitable court battles from people claiming their 10 liters of nicotine are strictly for personal use.

That is a distinct possibility. However, unless you are selling, giving, or otherwise distributing, then I doubt you would attract that kind of attention. There are still "probable cause" laws here. Getting caught "using" illegal drugs out in public is not probable cause to search your home. The simple act of vaping would not be probable cause to search your home. I dont think it will come to that. Or at least it would be a far lower probability than the 10% chance of getting tainted black-market juice.

 

[stols001]

Um. This would not be a simple matter of just sort of continuing a business on the down low, I mean the Feds would find out. People are just not that discreet I have found. Business owners would go to jail. It would get ugly.

The only insane place where this would work would be Tucson head shops/laundromats. And even then, don't think you could wander in and get gear. You have to befriend the stoners and they will then take you out into the back alley and sell you vape gear. Probably juice but I'm not sure I'd buy it.

Tucson is also the only place it would work. That town has so many businesses that launder money it's ridiculous.. You should see the tattoo shops. Granted, Tucsonians DO have a ton of tattoos, but like, NO town can support that many tattoo shops. It's IMPOSSIBLE.

Anna

 

[Jman8]

That is a distinct possibility. However, unless you are selling, giving, or otherwise distributing, then I doubt you would attract that kind of attention. There are still "probable cause" laws here. Getting caught "using" illegal drugs out in public is not probable cause to search your home. The simple act of vaping would not be probable cause to search your home. I dont think it will come to that. Or at least it would be a far lower probability than the 10% chance of getting tainted black-market juice.

I think we're all guessing at this point. I'm not stocking up on nic at this time, but could see me doing it down the road. I think of risks in handling nic (probably minute, but not risk free) and in having that much around. Same goes with "other stuff" (that I know we can name now, but I'd rather not). I've never been one that thought having ounces of that around is a good thing, and instead strikes me as a thing that could lead to some serious jail time. I do think a good 6 months to as much as 3 years after everything goes down (enforcement is clearly happening), that own personal stash will be a non-issue. But also think at some point, they'll look to make examples of private hoarders just to make it clear that you now need to be super duper discrete with vaping if you wish to continue. And for those who have in their possession (at home) say 6 (30 ml) bottles of whatever, I think that could spell trouble, but nowhere near what 1 liter would mean if caught. In today's world, even with legalization happening, if someone is caught with a pound of other stuff, I think very very few people would say, "oh that's just for personal use." And most (ignorant folks) would think it a good thing the Feds got that dealer out of the way. And just to be clear, in this example, let's assume that it was all for personal use (truly was). I highly doubt such a person would be able to convince authorities of that.

So again, don't get caught. Be you a hoarder or distributor.

 

[Jman8]

Um. This would not be a simple matter of just sort of continuing a business on the down low, I mean the Feds would find out. People are just not that discreet I have found. Business owners would go to jail. It would get ugly.

The only insane place where this would work would be Tucson head shops/laundromats. And even then, don't think you could wander in and get gear. You have to befriend the stoners and they will then take you out into the back alley and sell you vape gear. Probably juice but I'm not sure I'd buy it.

Tucson is also the only place it would work. That town has so many businesses that launder money it's ridiculous.. You should see the tattoo shops. Granted, Tucsonians DO have a ton of tattoos, but like, NO town can support that many tattoo shops. It's IMPOSSIBLE.

Anna

I didn't mean continue a brick and mortar. Also don't really believe they ought to plan to operate a business that distributes nationally. But if they do continue, the market has better chance of having quality product. And arguably better than whatever hoarders are whipping up, though that is obviously subjective.

I'm also referring mostly to only eLiquid, which is what will be the hot commodity going forward.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I'm also referring mostly to only eLiquid, which is what will be the hot commodity going forward.

Gun powder, lead, primers, brass and nicotine - barter currency for the future.

 

[Rossum]

The risk to such companies would be too great. The Feds would ruin their lives if they got caught.

I know one small vape shop owner who's said he intends to stay open until men with guns come to haul him away and padlock his shop. I admire this attitude.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I know one small vape shop owner who's said he intends to stay open until men with guns come to haul him away and padlock his shop. I admire this attitude.

Bravado, I would bet but I like the attitude, too.

 

[Rossum]

I think we're all guessing at this point. I'm not stocking up on nic at this time, but could see me doing it down the road. I think of risks in handling nic (probably minute, but not risk free) and in having that much around. Same goes with "other stuff" (that I know we can name now, but I'd rather not). I've never been one that thought having ounces of that around is a good thing, and instead strikes me as a thing that could lead to some serious jail time. I do think a good 6 months to as much as 3 years after everything goes down (enforcement is clearly happening), that own personal stash will be a non-issue. But also think at some point, they'll look to make examples of private hoarders just to make it clear that you now need to be super duper discrete with vaping if you wish to continue. And for those who have in their possession (at home) say 6 (30 ml) bottles of whatever, I think that could spell trouble, but nowhere near what 1 liter would mean if caught. In today's world, even with legalization happening, if someone is caught with a pound of other stuff, I think very very few people would say, "oh that's just for personal use." And most (ignorant folks) would think it a good thing the Feds got that dealer out of the way. And just to be clear, in this example, let's assume that it was all for personal use (truly was). I highly doubt such a person would be able to convince authorities of that.

So again, don't get caught. Be you a hoarder or distributor.

I'm not aware of any laws currently on the books under which an individual could be prosecuted for having "too much" nic, and the FDA's power to regulate is limited to things products that are offered in commerce. E.g.: Their regulations prohibit the sale of raw milk to consumers but if you have a cow, you can drink all the raw milk you want.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Well hopefully it won't come to having to hide a stash, but if so there would be the option of getting rid of it if one felt so inclined. BTW, personal possession of alchohol during prohibition was not illegal as long as it could be proved it was purchased legally before 1920, was kept in the purchasers private home, and could be consumed by the purchaser, his family, and guests.

 

[Jman8]

I'm not aware of any laws currently on the books under which an individual could be prosecuted for having "too much" nic, and the FDA's power to regulate is limited to things products that are offered in commerce.

Which is why I said for at least 6 months after enforcement happens (with businesses), it would be a non-issue. But I can see states taking up laws that seek to determine who are people that are clearly just users, and who are people that have amounts that appear to be what a distributor has.

Since it's all guessing at this point, I'm not gonna win in whatever argument I'm making. But to say black market buying eLiquid comes with risks, while hoarding doesn't have risks, I think is being naive. I think the vaper in 2022 that has say 60 ML of eLiquid in their possession is going to be able to be much more open with their vape than any hoarder of 1+ liter. I may one day be a hoarder, but I think I'll be nervous constantly when that happens. I hope I'm mistaken.

 

[Sloth Tonight]

Come and take it. I'm pretty sure there's a serial jaywalker that deserves more attention, though.

 

[Jman8]

I'd also just add that stocking up strikes me as prudent, but also risky. Yet, I'm banking on black market operators stocking up. If they're dumb, and get caught, that'll suck. But this isn't new and getting caught is the risk. Hard to spin it as stocking up is all peaches and cream, and that somehow it's going to be all bad for sellers (and buyers) in that underground market. I actually kinda think the opposite, but hope it's great for all vapers / sellers going forward, and that we win the larger war. Which I think we will, but the next 5 to 10 years could be bumpy.