Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

mikepetro

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Baditude

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mikepetro

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I totally agree. I wouldn't be surprised if they were part of the master plan all along. I still think Juul will be the last man standing after all of this mess.

“I think Juul put the entire category at risk by pursuing top-line growth and market share without a real eye toward what was going on and who was using them,” said Scott Gottlieb, who as federal Food and Drug Administration commissioner clashed with the startup last year.
 

mikepetro

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Sorry, this is a long post. I copy/pasted this from a vape shop owners post on social media. There's some pretty interesting info here that I had never seen before.

"On March 4, 2019, the FDA identified the companies listed below as the most egregious offenders selling ecigs to children.

More than 35% of all Marathon’s, Exxon’s, Sunoco’s, BP’s, Citgo’s and Mobil’s in America have been selling to children.

More than 25% of all Shell’s, Chevron’s, Casey’s and 7 Eleven’s in America have been selling to children.

More than 15% of all Wal-Mart’s, Walgreens’, Family Dollars’, Krogers’ and Circle K’s in America have been selling to children.

The FDA also stated on September 11, 2018, exactly one year before President Trump announced his intention to prohibit all flavored vapor, that the 5 brands comprising the “vast majority” of illegal sales were:

JUUL owned by Altria formerly Phillip Morris;

Vuse owned by RJ Reynolds Tobacco;

Blu owned by Imperial Brands formerly Imperial Tobacco;

Markten owned by Altria who was Phillip Morris;

Logic owned by Japan Tobacco.

This can’t be said enough. The vapor products actually targeting our children are all owned by tobacco companies and sold in all ages retail businesses.

Note that these are all closed system vapor products, not open system flavored vapor like what is sold in my small business adult vapor store or the roughly 10,000 other small businesses just like mine.

The guilty companies and retailers, as identified through far-reaching and thorough enforcement actions by the FDA, are not the ones being put out of business.

Also please note that no adult vapor stores or chains made the list. None the less, the small businesses that have dedicated their professional lives to battling the tobacco companies are being put out of business.

In the same statement from March 2019, the FDA stated, “...if these trends of youth e-cigarette use persist, we’ll be forced to consider regulatory steps that could constrain or even foreclose some of the opportunities for currently addicted adult smokers to have the same level of access to these products in order to protect youth.”

Phillip Morris and the rest of these tobacco companies read this warning from the FDA and said, “Bet. Watch us now.”

Fast forward to September 9, 2019. The FDA states, “JUUL products continue to represent a significant proportion of the overall use of ENDS (electronic nicotine delivery system) products by children. Some of this youth use appears to have been a direct result of JUUL’s product design and promotional activities and outreach efforts.”

The FDA goes on to state that a JUUL representative went into a high school and stated that a student “...should mention JUUL to his [nicotine addicted] friend... because that’s a safer alternative than smoking cigarettes, and it would be safer for the kid to use.”

The FDA laid out, I am sure unintentionally, the guide book for Altria who once was Phillip Morris to eliminate an alternative to Marlboro chosen by 13 million Americans. They created this surge in youth vaping on purpose because the FDA told them they would go after Vapor if they did.

And just to make sure their message was heard, Altria who was Phillip Morris spent $2,450,000.00 lobbying in the first quarter of 2019 alone. To gain additional access and perhaps to orchestrate their nefarious plan, JUUL employs or has employed as recently as October 2018:

-Spencer Morrison - 30 year FDA veteran as Director of Risk Mitigation and Compliance;
-Jerry Masoudi - former chief counsel for FDA as Chief Legal Officer;
- Ted McCann - top policy aide to Paul Ryan as a lobbyist;
- Jim Esquea - Obama’s Assistant Secretary of Health and Human Services as top in-house lobbyist;
- Josh Raffel - former Trump communications aide;
- Johnny DeStefano - former counsel to President Trump

Employment facts obtained from the Wall Street Journal and ABC.

Now their plan is working. New York just instituted Prohibition against flavored vapor without due process. Michigan is trying to do the same. The President has threatened to do the same federally. Not against JUUL who is happy to only offer tobacco and menthol flavors. Not against Marlboro. Not against Camel who is, I kid you not, now putting coloring sheets on the covers of their cigarette packs.

It may not have required all that much effort to convince some of our political leaders to pursue a purported youth vaping policy remedy that actually benefits the purveyors of cancer to our children.

The Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement, among other measures, requires these and other Tobacco companies to pay tremendous sums to the States each year ostensibly as recompense for State funds spent on the health consequences of cigarette smoking by State citizens.

Between 1998 and 2017, States received over $126 billion in MSA payments. They spent less than 1% on tobacco prevention programs.

In 2017, States received MSA payments that were 242% of CDC recommended spending levels on youth tobacco prevention. They actually spent 26% of the recommended level.

Multiple states effectively borrowed against projected MSA and tobacco tax revenue in the form of tobacco bonds. As of 2018 and as a partial result of the success of open system small business vapor stores converting 13 million citizens off of their cancer causing products, multiple states face either defaulting on those bonds or raising taxes. And... The levels of MSA payments maxed out by law in 2018. 2019 is the first year wherein the payments will not statutorily increase.

A local reporter asked me a few days ago, regarding the hysterical push to prohibit adult flavored vapor products, “Why now?” I answered, “Because they can.” That answer was given before uncovering the 2019 statutory cap on MSA payments. There seems to be a more clear explanation for the timing.

Anecdotally but relevantly, regarding the two States that have moved the fastest to institute Prohibition without due process:

New York has spent $700,000.00 of Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement Funds on golf carts and a sprinkler system at a public golf course rather than on youth tobacco prevention efforts.

Between 1999 and 2003, Michigan spent 75% of MSA payments on college and high school scholarships and 0% on tobacco cessation or prevention efforts."

Sources for the MSA information above are:

Public Health Law Center
Tobacco Free Kids
United States CDC
The New York Times.
 
Last edited:

NolaMel

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“I think Juul put the entire category at risk by pursuing top-line growth and market share without a real eye toward what was going on and who was using them,” said Scott Gottlieb, who as federal Food and Drug Administration commissioner clashed with the startup last year.
Thank you for getting us “back on track” ;)
 

Katya

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"On March 4, 2019, the FDA identified the companies listed below as the most egregious offenders selling ecigs to children.

More than 35% of all Marathon’s, Exxon’s, Sunoco’s, BP’s, Citgo’s and Mobil’s in America have been selling to children.

More than 25% of all Shell’s, Chevron’s, Casey’s and 7 Eleven’s in America have been selling to children.

More than 15% of all Wal-Mart’s, Walgreens’, Family Dollars’, Krogers’ and Circle K’s in America have been selling to children.

The FDA also stated on September 11, 2018, exactly one year before President Trump announced his intention to prohibit all flavored vapor, that the 5 brands comprising the “vast majority” of illegal sales were:

JUUL owned by Altria formerly Phillip Morris;

Vuse owned by RJ Reynolds Tobacco;

Blu owned by Imperial Brands formerly Imperial Tobacco;

Markten owned by Altria who was Phillip Morris;

Logic owned by Japan Tobacco.

This can’t be said enough. The vapor products actually targeting our children are all owned by tobacco companies and sold in all ages retail businesses.

Note that these are all closed system vapor products, not open system flavored vapor like what is sold in my small business adult vapor store or the roughly 10,000 other small businesses just like mine.

The guilty companies and retailers, as identified through far-reaching and thorough enforcement actions by the FDA, are not the ones being put out of business.

Also please note that no adult vapor stores or chains made the list. None the less, the small businesses that have dedicated their professional lives to battling the tobacco companies are being put out of business.

In the same statement from March 2019, the FDA stated, “...if these trends of youth e-cigarette use persist, we’ll be forced to consider regulatory steps that could constrain or even foreclose some of the opportunities for currently addicted adult smokers to have the same level of access to these products in order to protect youth.”

Phillip Morris and the rest of these tobacco companies read this warning from the FDA and said, “Bet. Watch us now.”

Fast forward to September 9, 2019. The FDA states, “JUUL products continue to represent a significant proportion of the overall use of ENDS (electronic nicotine delivery system) products by children. Some of this youth use appears to have been a direct result of JUUL’s product design and promotional activities and outreach efforts.”

The FDA goes on to state that a JUUL representative went into a high school and stated that a student “...should mention JUUL to his [nicotine addicted] friend... because that’s a safer alternative than smoking cigarettes, and it would be safer for the kid to use.”

The FDA laid out, I am sure unintentionally, the guide book for Altria who once was Phillip Morris to eliminate an alternative to Marlboro chosen by 13 million Americans. They created this surge in youth vaping on purpose because the FDA told them they would go after Vapor if they did.

And just to make sure their message was heard, Altria who was Phillip Morris spent $2,450,000.00 lobbying in the first quarter of 2019 alone. To gain additional access and perhaps to orchestrate their nefarious plan, JUUL employs or has employed as recently as October 2018:

-Spencer Morrison - 30 year FDA veteran as Director of Risk Mitigation and Compliance;
-Jerry Masoudi - former chief counsel for FDA as Chief Legal Officer;
- Ted McCann - top policy aide to Paul Ryan as a lobbyist;
- Jim Esquea - Obama’s Assistant Secretary of Health and Human Services as top in-house lobbyist;
- Josh Raffel - former Trump communications aide;
- Johnny DeStefano - former counsel to President Trump

Employment facts obtained from the Wall Street Journal and ABC.

Now their plan is working. New York just instituted Prohibition against flavored vapor without due process. Michigan is trying to do the same. The President has threatened to do the same federally. Not against JUUL who is happy to only offer tobacco and menthol flavors. Not against Marlboro. Not against Camel who is, I kid you not, now putting coloring sheets on the covers of their cigarette packs.

It may not have required all that much effort to convince some of our political leaders to pursue a purported youth vaping policy remedy that actually benefits the purveyors of cancer to our children.

The Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement, among other measures, requires these and other Tobacco companies to pay tremendous sums to the States each year ostensibly as recompense for State funds spent on the health consequences of cigarette smoking by State citizens.

Between 1998 and 2017, States received over $126 billion in MSA payments. They spent less than 1% on tobacco prevention programs.

In 2017, States received MSA payments that were 242% of CDC recommended spending levels on youth tobacco prevention. They actually spent 26% of the recommended level.

Multiple states effectively borrowed against projected MSA and tobacco tax revenue in the form of tobacco bonds. As of 2018 and as a partial result of the success of open system small business vapor stores converting 13 million citizens off of their cancer causing products, multiple states face either defaulting on those bonds or raising taxes. And... The levels of MSA payments maxed out by law in 2018. 2019 is the first year wherein the payments will not statutorily increase.

A local reporter asked me a few days ago, regarding the hysterical push to prohibit adult flavored vapor products, “Why now?” I answered, “Because they can.” That answer was given before uncovering the 2019 statutory cap on MSA payments. There seems to be a more clear explanation for the timing.

Anecdotally but relevantly, regarding the two States that have moved the fastest to institute Prohibition without due process:

New York has spent $700,000.00 of Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement Funds on golf carts and a sprinkler system at a public golf course rather than on youth tobacco prevention efforts.

Between 1999 and 2003, Michigan spent 75% of MSA payments on college and high school scholarships and 0% on tobacco cessation or prevention efforts."

Sources for the MSA information above are:

Public Health Law Center
Tobacco Free Kids
United States CDC
The New York Times.

Did I mention that I was depressed? :facepalm:
 

Jman8

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The (undeniable) reality is kids are going to vape no matter what.
And arguably more so because an adult has said no, don't do that. It's bad for you.
And even more arguable because when they do vape (nic) and realize it's not really that bad, they'll then realize they've been lied to.

There is clearly some good parenting going on, and some that is essentially horrible. Regardless, good kids can find ways to do 'bad' things so that parents don't really know. To say this is all or mostly about parenting doesn't jibe with how I see the world, this topic, or the solution going forward.

The solution, IMHO, going forward is to allow kids to vape. I see it as obvious. I see zero problem with kids vaping 0 nic juice.

But we're so far removed from the possibility of that solution ever being implemented, I see no purpose in arguing for it. I also think under that scenario, kids/teens will find things to add to 0 nic juice that other kids have told them is cool, fun, interesting to try. AND YET, that's STILL going to happen in the (black) market that's coming forth. To think otherwise, is simply foolish.

The political response to the (alleged) epidemic of teen vaping is to vote for increased age limits on kids, and hope enforcement makes some ripples in the 'epidemic' to have kids think twice about using. As all this is so contrary to how I frame the issue, I'm not probably the best person to suggest an age, but I'd go with 21 at minimum, and IMO, 40 isn't out of the question. Cause with this 'solution' at work, kids are clearly still going to vape. So the age we put on it, won't matter. Not really really. But it probably is in vapers' best interest to vote for higher age, even if it is contrary to own principles. Though, I just hope all the adults in that situation have the courage/honesty to realize we (adults) just made the black market for teen vaping. Kids didn't make that market, we adults did. Kids clearly have a demand to be vaping whether you (puritan) adults want to think otherwise. None of our dumb, slow moving laws are going to change a damn thing on this front.

Besides, us politically aware vapers know this isn't about the kids. And never has been.
 

Horselady154

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Sorry, this is a long post. I copy/pasted this from a vape shop owners post on social media. There's some pretty interesting info here that I had never seen before.

"On March 4, 2019, the FDA identified the companies listed below as the most egregious offenders selling ecigs to children.

More than 35% of all Marathon’s, Exxon’s, Sunoco’s, BP’s, Citgo’s and Mobil’s in America have been selling to children.

More than 25% of all Shell’s, Chevron’s, Casey’s and 7 Eleven’s in America have been selling to children.

More than 15% of all Wal-Mart’s, Walgreens’, Family Dollars’, Krogers’ and Circle K’s in America have been selling to children.

The FDA also stated on September 11, 2018, exactly one year before President Trump announced his intention to prohibit all flavored vapor, that the 5 brands comprising the “vast majority” of illegal sales were:

JUUL owned by Altria formerly Phillip Morris;

Vuse owned by RJ Reynolds Tobacco;

Blu owned by Imperial Brands formerly Imperial Tobacco;

Markten owned by Altria who was Phillip Morris;

Logic owned by Japan Tobacco.

This can’t be said enough. The vapor products actually targeting our children are all owned by tobacco companies and sold in all ages retail businesses.

Note that these are all closed system vapor products, not open system flavored vapor like what is sold in my small business adult vapor store or the roughly 10,000 other small businesses just like mine.

The guilty companies and retailers, as identified through far-reaching and thorough enforcement actions by the FDA, are not the ones being put out of business.

Also please note that no adult vapor stores or chains made the list. None the less, the small businesses that have dedicated their professional lives to battling the tobacco companies are being put out of business.

In the same statement from March 2019, the FDA stated, “...if these trends of youth e-cigarette use persist, we’ll be forced to consider regulatory steps that could constrain or even foreclose some of the opportunities for currently addicted adult smokers to have the same level of access to these products in order to protect youth.”

Phillip Morris and the rest of these tobacco companies read this warning from the FDA and said, “Bet. Watch us now.”

Fast forward to September 9, 2019. The FDA states, “JUUL products continue to represent a significant proportion of the overall use of ENDS (electronic nicotine delivery system) products by children. Some of this youth use appears to have been a direct result of JUUL’s product design and promotional activities and outreach efforts.”

The FDA goes on to state that a JUUL representative went into a high school and stated that a student “...should mention JUUL to his [nicotine addicted] friend... because that’s a safer alternative than smoking cigarettes, and it would be safer for the kid to use.”

The FDA laid out, I am sure unintentionally, the guide book for Altria who once was Phillip Morris to eliminate an alternative to Marlboro chosen by 13 million Americans. They created this surge in youth vaping on purpose because the FDA told them they would go after Vapor if they did.

And just to make sure their message was heard, Altria who was Phillip Morris spent $2,450,000.00 lobbying in the first quarter of 2019 alone. To gain additional access and perhaps to orchestrate their nefarious plan, JUUL employs or has employed as recently as October 2018:

-Spencer Morrison - 30 year FDA veteran as Director of Risk Mitigation and Compliance;
-Jerry Masoudi - former chief counsel for FDA as Chief Legal Officer;
- Ted McCann - top policy aide to Paul Ryan as a lobbyist;
- Jim Esquea - Obama’s Assistant Secretary of Health and Human Services as top in-house lobbyist;
- Josh Raffel - former Trump communications aide;
- Johnny DeStefano - former counsel to President Trump

Employment facts obtained from the Wall Street Journal and ABC.

Now their plan is working. New York just instituted Prohibition against flavored vapor without due process. Michigan is trying to do the same. The President has threatened to do the same federally. Not against JUUL who is happy to only offer tobacco and menthol flavors. Not against Marlboro. Not against Camel who is, I kid you not, now putting coloring sheets on the covers of their cigarette packs.

It may not have required all that much effort to convince some of our political leaders to pursue a purported youth vaping policy remedy that actually benefits the purveyors of cancer to our children.

The Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement, among other measures, requires these and other Tobacco companies to pay tremendous sums to the States each year ostensibly as recompense for State funds spent on the health consequences of cigarette smoking by State citizens.

Between 1998 and 2017, States received over $126 billion in MSA payments. They spent less than 1% on tobacco prevention programs.

In 2017, States received MSA payments that were 242% of CDC recommended spending levels on youth tobacco prevention. They actually spent 26% of the recommended level.

Multiple states effectively borrowed against projected MSA and tobacco tax revenue in the form of tobacco bonds. As of 2018 and as a partial result of the success of open system small business vapor stores converting 13 million citizens off of their cancer causing products, multiple states face either defaulting on those bonds or raising taxes. And... The levels of MSA payments maxed out by law in 2018. 2019 is the first year wherein the payments will not statutorily increase.

A local reporter asked me a few days ago, regarding the hysterical push to prohibit adult flavored vapor products, “Why now?” I answered, “Because they can.” That answer was given before uncovering the 2019 statutory cap on MSA payments. There seems to be a more clear explanation for the timing.

Anecdotally but relevantly, regarding the two States that have moved the fastest to institute Prohibition without due process:

New York has spent $700,000.00 of Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement Funds on golf carts and a sprinkler system at a public golf course rather than on youth tobacco prevention efforts.

Between 1999 and 2003, Michigan spent 75% of MSA payments on college and high school scholarships and 0% on tobacco cessation or prevention efforts."

Sources for the MSA information above are:

Public Health Law Center
Tobacco Free Kids
United States CDC
The New York Times.

THIS needs to be tweeted to Trump and his campaign manager, both.
 

Baditude

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I'm not on Twitter yet. Anyone who is, feel free to copy/past and Tweet to your heart's desire.

I only have 240 followers on Face Book, so my reach is limited.
THIS needs to be tweeted to Trump and his campaign manager, both.
 

sofarsogood

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I listened to a NY lawyer on youtube say that vapers who buy from out of state mail order are not breaking the law. Apparently NY can't enforce it's laws outside NY and apparently it's not criminalizing posession for personal use. I imagine the same is true for Michigan. All the flavor ban accomplishes is close down a bunch of speciality vape shops. Everybody will just go mail order.
 

Jman8

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Well, some folks bought their cigs one pack at a time too, while others didn't wanna be bothered with that many trips to the store and just bought cartons. A few even drove to a low-tax state or a reservation once in a while and bought a whole case.

Different strokes for different folks. :)

I bought cigs a carton at a time. 30 ml bottle will last me longer than any carton ever did.

I think giving 120 ml bottles to people in the upcoming market would be like a mid level dealer sharing stash with low level dealers.
 
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Katya

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I imagine the same is true for Michigan.

Not sure, but this was posted on Ahlusion's FB page (they are in MI):
"For Michigan customers: we will stop taking orders for any non-tobacco flavor on the 26th of September 2019. All other states are not currently affected by this Michigan "rule"."
 

Katya

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Keep increasing your stock, it will un-depress you :)

I'm not worried about my stock. I don't even stockpile--I've been resisting the calls to stockpile for almost 10 years and I'm just fine. Subject to change at a moment's notice, of course. I'm stubborn, but I'm not an idiot. Eyes wide open. ;)

I'm depressed about the general corruption and greed and the sad state of our Union in general.
 

zoiDman

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I listened to a NY lawyer on youtube say that vapers who buy from out of state mail order are not breaking the law. Apparently NY can't enforce it's laws outside NY and apparently it's not criminalizing posession for personal use. I imagine the same is true for Michigan. All the flavor ban accomplishes is close down a bunch of speciality vape shops. Everybody will just go mail order.

True.

But to make a Sale, you need a Buyer and a Seller.

I wonder How Many Retailers are going to want to Ship to Michigan or New York State?
 

Katya

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I wonder How Many Retailers are going to want to Ship to Michigan or New York State?

Very true. I remember "we're not able to ship to California at this time" disclaimers at a few vaping sites. Some minor stupid law that my state had passed... Years ago. Don't even remember what it was all about. Many/some vendors will not risk shipping to states that have banned flavors or whatnot.
 

sofarsogood

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True.

But to make a Sale, you need a Buyer and a Seller.

I wonder How Many Retailers are going to want to Ship to Michigan or New York State?
An out of state retailer might choose to avoid a state but the interstate commerce clause doesn't let the states have the authority to enforce their laws in other states. I'm not taking that for granted. Making a stockpile has been part of the hobby for me from the start. I'm sure the only thing that will delay or stop flavor bans is judges orders. The post above seems pretty good evidence that vape shops are not selling to kids. Give that distinction to gas station and c stores. The global tobacco business is ginormous. It's all about the money. EVERYBODY knows that.
 

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