Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[AttyPops]

I get that everyone is mad, and want "heads to roll".

Just as a rant: I hate this type of thing, in so much as, unless it's total incompetence (and I don't know that it's her fault 100% in this case, nor what pressure she's under) what we should do as not only employers but citizens is FOSTER and CORRECT behavior, not just fire people in a revolving door thing. If you correct the problem, you end up with a good employee being a better or even great employee. But with a "head rolling" mentality, you keep replacing people with "fresh" (less experienced) people.

Yes, it's politics. Yes, top managers get on chopping blocks. I get that too.

But it's really up to her peers, and an evaluation of her track record. Maybe she'll LEARN more about vaping from all this. And be BETTER for it.

I know, I know. Eternal optimist or some such. BUT if they CORRECT their errors, that's all that even God asks.

I'm also aware that I'm biased. But I'd rather err on the side of positive-fixes. Call me a sucker.

 

[muth]

I am an admin on a different forum, too. I have no way to access PMs at all. Possibly the site owner or his head minion can, but yes, I bet it's difficult.

During one period, a few posts received one or two hundred 'thumbs down' (That's all we get for ratings) They were able to discover and suspend the perpetrator, but I understand it was difficult and time consuming.

200 thumbs down? I bet it was time consuming for the perpetrator as well

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Don't think this load of of pure, unadulterated crap has has been posted yet. (Warning: Take a good stiff drink before reading.) AMA calls for total ban on all e-cigarette, vaping products

 

[Katya]

Don't think this load of of pure, unadulterated crap has has been posted yet. (Warning: Take a good stiff drink before reading.) AMA calls for total ban on all e-cigarette, vaping products

Here's my response to this.

 

[Nermal]

We just don't have a 'hilarious' rating.

Sure that wasn't SNL?

 

[Katya]

We just don't have a 'hilarious' rating.

Agreed.

Sure that wasn't SNL?

Absolutely 100% sure.

 

[dreamvaper]

If you correct the problem, you end up with a good employee being a better or even great employee. But with a "head rolling" mentality, you keep replacing people with "fresh" (less experienced) people.

Like it was the case that they all acted as professionals , in their best will, without any "hints" from above. Really?

 

[AttyPops]

Like it was the case that they all acted as professionals , in their best will, without any "hints" from above. Really?

My point is that looking around (AMA, CDC, FDA, etc) there seems to be pressure all the way around. And IDK why some feel that they have to single out one person. I can't reliably trace all of this back to Dr. Anne Schuchat. And like Zoidman said, if you're going to do a "heads roll" thing, why not tell Redfield to pack up his desk?

 

[dreamvaper]

I'd send the CDC to the Bikini island 4ever. All of them.

 

[AttyPops]

I'd send the CDC to the Bikini island 4ever. All of them.

Apparently we have to find another island for the AMA now too.


I expect educated people to B.S. better than that.

This goes back to comments I've made before. e-cigs are TOO successful and not villainous enough. They have to go out of their way to make them bad, ban them!, etc. Because heaven forbid they're actually significantly less harmful, what would they do? It's smoking or nothing (and phrarma NRT) for us all.

Tyranny! Tyranny! Tyranny of the three-letter agencies. And this AMA thing bothers me the most I think. Wow. I wouldn't have guessed that at all.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Just as a rant: I hate this type of thing, in so much as, unless it's total incompetence (and I don't know that it's her fault 100% in this case, nor what pressure she's under) what we should do as not only employers but citizens is FOSTER and CORRECT behavior, not just fire people in a revolving door thing. If you correct the problem, you end up with a good employee being a better or even great employee. But with a "head rolling" mentality, you keep replacing people with "fresh" (less experienced) people.

Yes, it's politics. Yes, top managers get on chopping blocks. I get that too.

But it's really up to her peers, and an evaluation of her track record. Maybe she'll LEARN more about vaping from all this. And be BETTER for it.


...

I'm Sorry Atty.

But this wasn't some adjunct professor at East Overshoe College. This was the Principal Deputy Director of the CDC. And the CDC is supposed to be the World's Most Eminent Research Organization.

An Organization that Not Only Advises all US Federal Agencies and State Health Departments. But also Foreign Governments.

The Idea that maybe she will LEARN more about Vaping and be BETTER for it is Beyond Idyllic.

If Schuchat didn't/doesn't Understand Vaping (which about Nobody thinks she is/was) then she is Negligently Unqualified and Unfit to hold a position providing guidance to the Implementation of Public Health Policy in the USA.

At her level, you Can't just Pick Up a Sword and Start Swinging. And if you Crash an Industry or Two or Cause the Vast Majority of the Population to believe the FUD that the Media is cramming down people's throats without Accountability.

 

[AttyPops]

Zoid, I've already defended the CDC in these threads, and they DID point at THC from the start, but couldn't rule out other contaminants on the nic side. This is mostly due to a bunch of patients LYING their AZZES off.

But OK, if you want to pretend all this anti-vaping stuff originates at the CDC fine. I don't. So we disagree. And they're the only agency that HAS corrected their vitriol. The latest revisions are squarely on the THC side.

And yesterday the AHA comes out against all e-cigs! Is that the CDC's fault? No, they've corrected their stuff. So of all the three letter agencies, the CDC is the only one that in the end got it correct, as far as I can see.

From the start they said "Avoid THC vapes, particularly street, and consider not vaping" (Paraphrased). That "ain't" that bad.

WTFrack is up with the AMA?

 

[zoiDman]

...

But OK, if you want to pretend all this anti-vaping stuff originates at the CDC fine. I don't. So we disagree. ...

Are you Moving the Goal Posts Atty?

Or just Inventing what People Think so it can be Easily Countered?

Or Both?

My Post is about the whether or Not Schuchat is Fit to be on the Leadership Level of the CDC.

 

[AttyPops]

Are you Moving the Goal Posts Atty?

Or just Inventing what People Think so it can be Easily Countered?

Neither. You said this:

At her level, you Can't just Pick Up a Sword and Start Swinging. And if you Crash an Industry or Two or Cause the Vast Majority of the Population to believe the FUD that the Media is cramming down people's throats without Accountability.

That was you, not me. I just made a short-hand reference.

If you're saying she's one of the many that are symptomatic of the problem, sure. But then again I'm back to my point about "Why single her out?"

 

[Bronze]

There has to be bigger things to debate than this, no?

 

[zoiDman]

At her level, you Can't just Pick Up a Sword and Start Swinging. And if you Crash an Industry or Two or Cause the Vast Majority of the Population to believe the FUD that the Media is cramming down people's throats without Accountability.

That was you, not me. I just made a short-hand reference.

Yep. That what I Said. And that is what Schuchat and the CDC Leadership did.

If you think CDC has acted in a Professional and Scientific manor dealing with these "Vaping" Illnesses, or, if you think Schuchat gave Accurate, Factual and Non-Biased testimony before Congress, or, if you think the timing of CDC statements or lack there of which Triggered Multiple States to declare Public Health Emergencies and subsequent Bans, then I think we are Done Here.

 

[dreamvaper]

if you think Schuchat gave A

yep

 

[NolaMel]

Apparently we have to find another island for the AMA now too.


I expect educated people to B.S. better than that.

This goes back to comments I've made before. e-cigs are TOO successful and not villainous enough. They have to go out of their way to make them bad, ban them!, etc. Because heaven forbid they're actually significantly less harmful, what would they do? It's smoking or nothing (and phrarma NRT) for us all.

Tyranny! Tyranny! Tyranny of the three-letter agencies. And this AMA thing bothers me the most I think. Wow. I wouldn't have guessed that at all.

If it makes you feel better, the majority of practicing physicians don’t believe in them either. Read down for membership %s. What’s scary is the number of med students and residents (post grad) they’re feeding this load of **** to.
Don't Believe AMA's Hype, Membership Still Declining

 

[jandrew]

...
If you're saying she's one of the many that are symptomatic of the problem, sure. But then again I'm back to my point about "Why single her out?"

Because, as Principal Deputy Director of the CDC, she has a high level of responsibility, and therefore accountability. She has testified in congress (four times) and been interviewed by the media and has been more than just complicit, but instrumental, in fostering public and political fear of e-cigarettes. All of her congressional testimonies about the lung injuries have purposely included sections on the youth vaping "epidemic" (implicitly tying the two together). You can see the bias in just looking at the titles of her congressional testimony documents on the CDC website:

09-24-2019: "Don’t Vape: Examining the Outbreak of Lung Disease and CDC’s Urgent Warning Not to Use E-Cigarettes"

09-25-2019: "Sounding the Alarm: The Public Health Threat of E-Cigarettes"

10-16-2019: "E-cigarettes: An Emerging Threat to Public Health"

11-13-2019: "Examining the Response to Lung Illnesses and Rising Youth Electronic Cigarette Use"

Yes, you can read these and see that THC is mentioned, and more strongly in the latter ones ... and yet, even when the balance of evidence was clearly pointing to black market THC, she was not giving testimony on the "Public Health Threat of Marijuana" or the "Emerging Threat of THC Vaping" ...

 

[AttyPops]

I don't want to argue about all this, I said it was a rant.

I mean, fine. If you want to single her out at the CDC, then I guess to be just we'll have to "make heads roll" at the FDA, AHA, AMA, congress, media agencies, ... and anyone else screaming propaganda. Fine. Have at it, becuase they're all talking from the same damn script. And that's been my point all along.

Bring out the guillotines, pitch-forks, torches, and tar and feathers.

Pretty soon I'm going to end up sounding like or joining @Rossum ... He'll be proud.

Trump could do worse than to just put a big E.O. driven pause on this whole thing until after the 2020 elections at least, and focus on age restrictions. But IDK that he'd have sway over the states. Maybe some form of interstate commerce, but I don't think that will fly in this case as the state in question aren't favoring their own sales, they're banning all of them uniformly, intra and inter.