Convenience stores usually get product pull/product recall memos from their distributors.
Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
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The Ploom is Here. Check the date on this thread.ETA: The original Ploom was invented in 2010 by the same two guys who later invented juul. Full circle?
SMH
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And now I'm hearing that the Federal appeals court has already put a temporary hold on the FDA's JUUL ban. I can't find an authoritative source though.
ETA: Several sources confirming this are now popping up in the search engines.
ETA: Several sources confirming this are now popping up in the search engines.
I've never used a Juul and probably never will, but this is good news. I know a few people at work use them including our plant manager.
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Yeah... I'm trying to find a National Source from this also.
Federal court blocks FDA ban on Juul e-cigarette sales in US.
Court temporarily blocks FDA ban on sale of Juul e-cigarettes | The Hill
I believe this to be true. The fact that they did some politically incorrect but completely legal advertising nearly five years ago should not weigh into whether they are allowed to sell product now.
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"Today, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit granted Juul Labs an emergency administrative stay of enforcement which temporarily blocks the FDA’s marketing denial order while the company appeals the FDA’s decision.While the stay is in effect, all of our products remain available for sale."
Meanwhile in the real world - price gauging as supplies deplete has sent the cost sky high.
Stock is becoming depleted as people panic buy and horde. Unfortunately, this is a glimpse of what the future of vaping will be in our country as the push to get people back on cigarettes continues. The FDA appears to be forcing vape manufacturers to prove their products are used as a smoking cessation device, not as a alternative nicotine delivery device that is less harmful than cigarettes.
Meanwhile in the real world - price gauging as supplies deplete has sent the cost sky high.
Stock is becoming depleted as people panic buy and horde. Unfortunately, this is a glimpse of what the future of vaping will be in our country as the push to get people back on cigarettes continues. The FDA appears to be forcing vape manufacturers to prove their products are used as a smoking cessation device, not as a alternative nicotine delivery device that is less harmful than cigarettes.
"To stay on the market, companies must show that their e-cigarettes benefit public health. In practice, that means proving that adult smokers who use them are likely to quit or reduce their smoking, while teens are unlikely to get hooked on them."
How does this make any sense? Manufacturers to prove their products are used as a smoking cessation device, not as a alternative nicotine delivery device that is less harmful than cigarettes.
They also must prove teens won't want to use them.
How does this make any sense? Manufacturers to prove their products are used as a smoking cessation device, not as a alternative nicotine delivery device that is less harmful than cigarettes.
They also must prove teens won't want to use them.
Hah! I did the majority of my hoarding in 2014-2016, after the Deeming regs had been proposed, but before they were finalized. I've been vaping at darn close to zero additional cost ever since.
Of course this means I have no clue what is and isn't still available, so in another thread, I recently asked for recommendations for beginner rebuildable gear for a friend of a friend. TBH, I'm surprised to see how much such stuff is still out there, and how reasonable the prices are.
Hypocrisy:
A feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not : behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel.
Early 2009 FDA declares e-cigarettes to be a drug delivery device because they promote them as a smoking cessation device, bans them, and confiscates imports.
2010 Judge Leon rules against the FDA:
https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2009cv0771-54
"To the extent that smoking cessation is a therapeutic claim distinct from the treatment of nicotine addiction and withdrawal, the Court is aware that the two customer testimonials referenced above suggest that electronic cigarettes are intended for smoking cessation, if not for treating nicotine dependence (as suggested by FDA). Given Smoking Everywhere's express disclaimer that its electronic cigarettes are not intended as a smoking cessation device, (AR DET 1), and given the overwhelming evidence in the record that its electronic cigarettes are intended merely as a recreational alternative to traditional cigarettes (and not necessarily as a therapeutic replacement for traditional cigarettes), the Court concludes that the two testimonials cited by FDA are not alone sufficient to support a finding that the product appears to be intended to help customers quit smoking."
2016 FDA deems them a tobacco product and says they cannot claim smoking cessation or they are a drug and not a tobacco product.
Federal Register :: Request Access
"The most important consideration is that ENDS are not an FDA-approved cessation product. If an ENDS manufacturer wishes to make a cessation claim or otherwise market its product for therapeutic purposes, the company must submit an application for their ENDS to be marketed as a medical product."
Currently:
FDA Permits Marketing of E-Cigarette Products, Marking First Authorization of Its Kind by the Agency
"For these products, the FDA determined that the potential benefit to smokers who switch completely or significantly reduce their cigarette use, would outweigh the risk to youth, provided the applicant follows post-marketing requirements aimed at reducing youth exposure and access to the products."
To summarize the FDA's actions:
1) They are a smoking cessation device so they are a medical device.
2) They are a Tobacco Product therefore cannot be a smoking cessation device.
3) You must prove that their efficiency as a smoking cessation device is greater than their youth appeal.
A feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not : behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel.
Early 2009 FDA declares e-cigarettes to be a drug delivery device because they promote them as a smoking cessation device, bans them, and confiscates imports.
2010 Judge Leon rules against the FDA:
https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2009cv0771-54
"To the extent that smoking cessation is a therapeutic claim distinct from the treatment of nicotine addiction and withdrawal, the Court is aware that the two customer testimonials referenced above suggest that electronic cigarettes are intended for smoking cessation, if not for treating nicotine dependence (as suggested by FDA). Given Smoking Everywhere's express disclaimer that its electronic cigarettes are not intended as a smoking cessation device, (AR DET 1), and given the overwhelming evidence in the record that its electronic cigarettes are intended merely as a recreational alternative to traditional cigarettes (and not necessarily as a therapeutic replacement for traditional cigarettes), the Court concludes that the two testimonials cited by FDA are not alone sufficient to support a finding that the product appears to be intended to help customers quit smoking."
2016 FDA deems them a tobacco product and says they cannot claim smoking cessation or they are a drug and not a tobacco product.
Federal Register :: Request Access
"The most important consideration is that ENDS are not an FDA-approved cessation product. If an ENDS manufacturer wishes to make a cessation claim or otherwise market its product for therapeutic purposes, the company must submit an application for their ENDS to be marketed as a medical product."
Currently:
FDA Permits Marketing of E-Cigarette Products, Marking First Authorization of Its Kind by the Agency
"For these products, the FDA determined that the potential benefit to smokers who switch completely or significantly reduce their cigarette use, would outweigh the risk to youth, provided the applicant follows post-marketing requirements aimed at reducing youth exposure and access to the products."
To summarize the FDA's actions:
1) They are a smoking cessation device so they are a medical device.
2) They are a Tobacco Product therefore cannot be a smoking cessation device.
3) You must prove that their efficiency as a smoking cessation device is greater than their youth appeal.
I wonder how many panicked Juul users thought they weren't going to be able to get any more pods. How many Juul employees thought they were going to get laid off from their jobs? Government bureaucrats seem totally unconcerned how their decisions affect real peoples lives.
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Yep... When you look up Arbitrary and Capricious in a Regulatory Law Dictionary there is a picture of the FDA's Logo next to the Description.
Hopefully a Judge can dust off a copy of the Administrative Procedure Act and actually Think why Section 706(2) was/should be considered a Crucial Check n' Balance when a Federal Agency starts to Colour Outside of the Lines.
Section 706(2)(A) of the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) instructs courts reviewing regulation to invalidate any agency action found to be "arbitrary, capricious, an abuse of discretion, or otherwise not in accordance with law." The arbitrary-or-capricious test is used by judges when reviewing the factual basis for agency rulemaking. Courts can overturn agency rules if they find the underlying rationale or factual assertions to be unreasonable.
5 U.S. Code § 706 - Scope of review
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That's just the thing. You can feel the faked reality closing in when the media is owned by pharma with massive ad buys, and all widely consumed media are heavily censored, so nobody can say that you can use open systems and set your own nic levels, that many vapers quit cigarettes with a moderate 18 mg and then reduce to 12, 9, 6. There can be no discussion. There will be one created reality in this matrix. Nobody will ever be allowed to say to the public masses that regulatory authorities already nixed that "lower nicotine cigarette" theory long ago because you still are smoking burning plant matter and damaging your lungs.
I'll be clear that I've never even wanted to try Juul. Are they all filled with liquid that is 5 percent nic by weight, and isn't that 50 mg/ml ??? Gawd.
Anyway, disposables, no appeal for me, but I know people use them to quit cigarettes because they understand using one up and grabbing the next one, just like cigarettes. Some make further discoveries of all the possibilities later, open systems, coil building, DIY liquid creation, all of it, but I feel it coming, the end of open systems, the wonderful hobby that is the extension of a life saving technology. I keep forgetting, our government wants us all dead.
These are the disposables I just looked up, nic levels by brand:
Vuse solo, 48 mg (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Myblu 36 mg
Logic Power Menthol 27 mg
The only more moderate ones, but again, never any way to reduce from that 18 mg, and about two weeks after I completely quit cigarettes, suddenly the 18 mg that helped me permanently quit, was too much, keeping me wired, waking in the middle of the night, so I had to reduce to 12, where I have stayed for nearly 10 years:
Vuse Ciro, 15 mg
Mistic, 18 mg
Jak Ecig starter kit 18 mg
Anyway:
Juul Wins Emergency Order Blocking FDA Ban From U.S. Market
I did try one when they first came out in 2015. I decided fairly quickly that it wasn't my thing, but I was already a confirmed squonker by then.
No, Juul also offers pods with 3% nic by weight. And you have to keep in mind that they really don't produce much vapor. An eGo style clearomizer produces substantially more. Teeny, tiny devices that don't produce much vapor need higher nic strength in order to be effective.
People are different. I also quit with 18 (and occasional hits of 24). 12 was utterly unsatisfying at that time, although I finally got down there last year, reducing 0.5 mg/ml at a time, but only when a reduction wasn't causing me to vape more liquid.
Editing: I see it now, a little box to click if you want 3 percent (35 mg/ml) vs the headlined 5 percent (59 mg/ml), either of those still ridiculous to start people with when you can read this forum and the other one, going back for years, and see that people use 60 mg and 36 mg as nic base to dilute.
Anyway my point was to reply to Vapeon4Life's quote of Nora O'Donnell on the CBS Evening News, griping that in one Juul there is more nicotine than in a whole carton of cigarettes. I doubt that's true, but it's a case in point of how mainstream media puppets can say whatever they want because nobody anywhere gets a chance to refute it, or to respond to tell her that until recent years people routinely started at nic levels less than a third of what's in the the strongest Juul, and subsequently reduced it, or that there are better options even among disposables, that regulatory authorities already debunked the "safer" lower nicotine cigarette, that there are vast numbers of people all over the world who have quit smoking by vaping, many who have healed their smoking related health issues, that the sale of vape products to minors is illegal. None of it. No exploration, no discovery, NO DISCUSSION, no news, fake news.
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It wasn't actually Nora O'Donnell who said it - It was a news video on her program.
Of course it isn't the show host who is responsible - Supposedly some department responsible for the news should be checking the accuracy - But apparently when it comes to something like vaping as long as the story is negative it passes.
Saw an interesting video on Juul {it was part of a documentary series on one of the streaming services}
showing how the Juul founder{s} had nothing but good intentions to begin with and were trying to market their product as a safer alternative to smoking.
The fact that kids got on the bandwagon and started to make it the new 'in' thing was not their intentions.
So they say. But Juul, unfortunately for them, became the company to blame for all the teen vaping.
And what better evidence than the court of public opinion as seen by the FDA do they need ?
But as someone said, Juul as part of big tobacco has the money to fight back legally.
But here is the thing - Once the FDA admitted that Ecigs are safer than regular smokes and then approved
Vuse {RJ Reynolds} - They are going to have a hard time outlawing other peoples, including small manufacturers products. Vuse did not prove anything different than all the other guys
- They just had more money - and maybe they greased the right palms with that money ?!?!
It is not.
One Juul pod holds 0.7 ml of liquid. At 59 mg/ml call it 42 mg of nicotine.
There's about 0.75 grams of tobacco in a cigarette. A carton is 200 cigs, so that's 150 grams. Standard tobacco is ~3% nicotine. That would be 5 grams (5,000 mg!) of nicotine.
So the claim is incorrect by roughly two orders of magnitude.
Absolutely. Don't get me started, for I would surely take this off-topic.
With devices that produced considerably more vapor, meaning the person would vape roughly the same amount of nicotine, because those devices go through more (weaker) liquid.
Back in the golden years of vaping, there were several polls here on ECF asking how much liquid people used and what strength. Cloud-chasing sub-ohmers were normally using something on the order of 3 mg/ml liquid, but went through a lot of it (10, 20, or in some cases even 30 ml a day). Tootle puffers were generally using something between 12 and 18 mg/ml liquid, and went through a lot less of it, generally under 5 ml per day. I did a simple multiplication to just look at mg of nicotine used per day. The result was a bell curve, with the peak around 50 mg/day.
Does it really make a difference whether someone goes through a single Juul pod with 42 mg of nic per day, or whether he uses 3.5 ml of 12 mg liquid? The amount of nicotine consumed is the same either way. In fact, I think there's a pretty decent argument to be made that the former is "better" because it involves inhaling less PG, VG, and flavorings than the latter.
I saw that too and grimaced. Juul has always said one pod is equal to a pack of cigarettes and I often wondered if that was an exaggeration. Equal to one carton is so insane, the reporter should have known it immediately. They even mentioned the street made THC pods that caused lung damage generically as being the fault of the ecig industry.
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