Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Vapeon4Life]

Now people let me show you how 'the fix is in' works on the internet:

I 'Googled' the following:

"current law suits filed by vape manufacturers against fda"

And here is what came up:

Showing results for current lawsuits filed by vape manufacturers against fda


Search Results
Web results

E-Cigarette & Juul Lawsuits | Seizures, Lung Injury and Stroke

https://www.drugwatch.com › Juul and E-Cigarettes

juul lawyers are filing lawsuits on behalf of individuals who suffered seizures, strokes and serious lung injuries after using e-cigarettes.
How have your vaping-related injuries impacted your daily life?

What injuries are you experiencing?
People also ask

What vape companies are being sued?
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What vape did the FDA ban?
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Is there a class action lawsuit against Juul?
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How much can you get from Juul lawsuit?"



Bought and paid for Google will not answer my question - Instead they automatically twist it around
to an anti-vaping legal issue - NOT the one I asked about how vape companies are fighting back!

They do this with health issues as well - If you ask for information about health advantages of ecigs
over lit tobacco they will first give a whole series of anti vaping articles first even if you did not ask
for any of them.

Special interests pay for this - the agendas seems to be to eliminate vaping as an alternative to smoking,
- even though vaping successfully got many former smokers to quit completely and vape instead
- A safer {in my opinion based upon scientific articles} option that allows for other options like low or 0 nicotine - Apparently special anti vaping interests control
the media and the internet {ie. Google} - But we all know that don't we?

 

[Bliss Doubt]

June 22, 2022

The FDA knows nicotine is addictive. It wants to regulate it for the first time

 

[Rossum]

They do this with health issues as well

Nor is this phenomenon limited to health issues, but those have certainly made it obvious.

 

[Bliss Doubt]

It wasn't actually Nora O'Donnell who said it - It was a news video on her program.

Okay, sorry @Vapeon4Life, I misread you. I'm still not clear on who said what, but if the FDA or CDC made the statement in that clip, aren't we just so reassured it's accurate information about vaping and health... (not)

Of course it isn't the show host who is responsible - Supposedly some department responsible for the news should be checking the accuracy - But apparently when it comes to something like vaping as long as the story is negative it passes.

Pharma owns the news, so believe me, it passed with approval, and may even have been fed to them, like a lot of news is, by their overseers. Pfizer has been shown to have stakes in Reuters and in one of the "fake checkers", I forget which one, Factcheck or Politifact. If they are trying to shadow support a nicotine bomb that will ultimately be used as a bogey for squashing all vape options, this may be act 1.

Saw an interesting video on Juul {it was part of a documentary series on one of the streaming services}
showing how the Juul founder{s} had nothing but good intentions to begin with and were trying to market their product as a safer alternative to smoking.

The fact that kids got on the bandwagon and started to make it the new 'in' thing was not their intentions.
So they say. But Juul, unfortunately for them, became the company to blame for all the teen vaping.

By the time Juul came out, vaping was a rapidly growing, newsworthy smoking cessation phenomenon, and the forums were hopping. You would think Altria could have found a way to survey vapers about what worked, what they liked, what nic levels they used to stay off cigarettes, could have done a careful marketing study before trotting out a cute nicotine bomb, could have fought the FDA's ban on promoting vaping as a smoking cessation method. The more this discussion continues, the more I'm learning about Juul and Vuse, and the more I'm agreeing with the critics of them. I don't see how one is any better than the other, and large multinational companies love to bigfoot their way to market dominance by squashing competition, or buying up the competition and ruining it.

But here is the thing - Once the FDA admitted that Ecigs are safer than regular smokes and then approved
Vuse {RJ Reynolds} - They are going to have a hard time outlawing other peoples, including small manufacturers products. Vuse did not prove anything different than all the other guys

I hope you're right

- They just had more money - and maybe they greased the right palms with that money ?!?!

Absolutely think you're right with that last point.

 

[Bliss Doubt]

One Juul pod holds 0.7 ml of liquid. At 59 mg/ml call it 42 mg of nicotine.

---

Does it really make a difference whether someone goes through a single Juul pod with 42 mg of nic per day, or whether he uses 3.5 ml of 12 mg liquid? The amount of nicotine consumed is the same either way. In fact, I think there's a pretty decent argument to be made that the former is "better" because it involves inhaling less PG, VG, and flavorings than the latter.

Okay, I don't get that, "At 59 mg/ml call it 42 mg of nicotine." Nicotine at 59 mg/ml is 59 mg nic.

Everybody is welcome to have opinions, and discussion is good. Discussion is in these forums and pretty obviously nowhere else. Maybe Reddit, or the comments sections underneath anti-vaping articles.

It can be the opinion of others that pg, vg and flavors are dangerous, but my experience is that they are not. When I took up vaping, my lungs were so trashed from smoking that I would probably be dead by now if I'd not been able to quit. A high nic liquid, 59 mg/ml, is, to me, the greater danger. Nicotine is a strong stimulant, similar to caffeine, but I don't want morning coffee with a bunch of those caffeine tablets dissolved in it (those little pills you took to pull the all nighter study session before final exams), to drink less coffee. I think that would be a dangerous jolt. Many of us, when quitting cigarettes, wanted that vape binky all day to hold us secure. It helped me quit smoking. I still want my binky. If I'm awake I'm vaping. I stop vaping to eat. My lungs are healthy now. I never have bronchitis anymore. I never get colds or flu. I used to be sick all winter every year.

So to me, it defies logic to think that one quick vape at the highest nic level would be equal to the all day binky at 12 mg., vaping whenever I want, feeling secure against cigarette cravings, or that one quick vape at super high nic would help smokers quit.

Certainly more studies of vaping would be helpful, real, sincere studies of vaping vs. smoking, vaping as compared to asthma inhalers that use pg, the content of vape liquids as compared to the content of combusted, additive coated tobacco, not vaping mice vs. non-vaping mice (gawd). I wouldn't care really if flavors were banned, because with open systems I can add flavors. I vape unflavored now when I have to be around people, and could adjust and be satisfied with unflavored for the rest of my life.

 

[Bliss Doubt]

"To stay on the market, companies must show that their e-cigarettes benefit public health. In practice, that means proving that adult smokers who use them are likely to quit or reduce their smoking, while teens are unlikely to get hooked on them."

How does this make any sense? Manufacturers to prove their products are used as a smoking cessation device, not as a alternative nicotine delivery device that is less harmful than cigarettes.
They also must prove teens won't want to use them.

I don't know when or if this practice stopped, but vape manufacturers who promoted their materials as smoking cessation methods in the past received cease and desist notices from the FDA. That wasn't allowed. Johnson Creek got one of those threats. They made the flavorings for Blu after Lorillard bought Blu. Johnson Creek is gone now.

Of course for the fleas of the unelected bureaucracies, hypocrisy is always allowed.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I don't know when or if this practice stopped, but vape manufacturers who promoted their materials as smoking cessation methods in the past received cease and desist notices from the FDA. That wasn't allowed. Johnson Creek got one of those threats. They made the flavorings for Blu after Lorillard bought Blu. Johnson Creek is gone now.

Of course for the fleas of the unelected bureaucracies, hypocrisy is always allowed.

"Fleas", I like it.

 

[Rossum]

Okay, I don't get that, "At 59 mg/ml call it 42 mg of nicotine." Nicotine at 59 mg/ml is 59 mg nic.

Again, a Juul pod only contains 0.7 ml of liquid. So the amount of nicotine in one Juul is less than the amount in one ml of their liquid. 59 * 0.7 = 41.3, which I rounded up to 42.

When I took up vaping, my lungs were so trashed from smoking that I would probably be dead by now if I'd not been able to quit. A high nic liquid, 59 mg/ml, is, to me, the greater danger. Nicotine is a strong stimulant, similar to caffeine, but I don't want morning coffee with a bunch of those nicotine tablets dissolved in it (those little pills you took to pull the all nighter study session before final exams), to drink less coffee. I think that would be a dangerous jolt. Many of us, when quitting cigarettes, wanted that vape binky all day to hold us secure. It helped me quit smoking. I still want my binky. If I'm awake I'm vaping. I stop vaping to eat. My lungs are healthy now. I never have bronchitis anymore. I never get colds or flu. I used to be sick all winter every year.

For much of that, I agree with you, but not necessarily the stimulant part. Again, people are different. There are times when I'll wake up in the middle of the night and not be able to get back to sleep until I take a puff off my vape. Go figure.

Oh, and isn't it pretty much accepted that people who switched from "full flavor" cigarettes to "light" one generally ended up smoking more?

Are VG, PG, and flavorings bad? They are certainly much less bad than smoke, but I rather doubt they are good. Well, except for the PG. That may actually be a net good due to its anti-microbial properties.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I have to balance my nicotine use and my need for hand to mouth movement. I believe that the habitual movement of hand to mouth needed for vaping was instrumental in my success at smoking cessation when I took up vaping. I vary between 12mg and 15mg when I mix.

 

[thanswr1]

It is not.

One Juul pod holds 0.7 ml of liquid. At 59 mg/ml call it 42 mg of nicotine.

There's about 0.75 grams of tobacco in a cigarette. A carton is 200 cigs, so that's 150 grams. Standard tobacco is ~3% nicotine. That would be 5 grams (5,000 mg!) of nicotine.

So the claim is incorrect by roughly two orders of magnitude. /QUOTE]

Oh nooo. Facts. Such a dangerous thing.

I'm still trying to figure out how the FDA can ban or severely curtail a product that has never caused one jury or one death. I would like the FDA to point one, just one, death or injury caused by juice purchased from legitimate vendors or properly used equipment.

Pardon me ..........

I'm breaking myself up today.

 

[vapingfool]

They say we "need to protect the children better". Yet the smoking rate among youngsters is the lowest it has been in over half a century. And their vaping because it is the new "in thing" is also dropping off dramatically.

I guess the believe that banning vaping and pushing the youth smoking rate back up to 15+% is "protecting" them.

They also ignore the fact that it is all the toxic substances in burning tobacco that is harmful, not the nicotine. According to the science studies, a small amount of nicotine is actually good for you - as long as it is not delivered in a hot plume of gases.

 

[MLEJ]

They say we "need to protect

I guess the believe that banning vaping and pushing the youth smoking rate back up

They also ignore the fact that

The anti-vaping crusade has never had anything to do w/ health, children, or facts. It's only to do w/ tobacco company, big pharma, 501(c)(4), and government profits. As long as we keep arguing w/ facts pertinent to pubic health, we'll keep on losing.

 

[jjcordone]

What worries me that Juul is at this juncture now because they were among the first companies to put their hands up for approval and jump through all the hoops. It was a very expensive and complex process. The FDA suddenly saying no and trying to shut down their company overnight, from what appears to be a personal vendetta against the company, makes me wonder how many other companies will be able to even try or want to after seeing this. Ultimately, how many companies will they actually approve? Will we end up with Vuse as having a monopoly on the ecig market?

 

[MLEJ]

Ultimately, how many companies will they actually approve? Will we end up with Vuse as having a monopoly on the ecig market?

Altria (= Phillip Morris = Marlboro, et al) has a 35% stake in Juul. Believe me, the FDA's move wasn't made w/o Altria's consent. It was about image & politics. Some form of an Altria e-cigarette product will be approved & released.

What we'll end up w/ is a handful of products sold, via different channels, by Big Tobacco & Big Pharma.

Stock up & pray the corportions are content enough that possession isn't made a crime.

 

[Rossum]

Will we end up with Vuse as having a monopoly on the ecig market?

First, I can't imagine Congress would allow the FDA to create a true monopoly by only authorizing one company's products, and the FDA knows it.

Second, a few pages back, zoiD posted a link to the FDA's list of approved PMTAs. In addition to VUSE, NJOY and Logic already have authorized products, so the answer to your question is clearly, "No".

Now I understand you're upset that Juul may be forced from the market and you don't much like any of the readily available alternatives. Had I been a Juul user, I would have reached that point years ago because I never cared for tobacco or menthol flavors. But I also realized long ago that the only durable solution to this sort of overreach was to make myself FDA-proof.

It's late in the game, but I think there's still time for those who haven't.

 

[WorksForMe]

Altria (= Phillip Morris = Marlboro, et al) has a 35% stake in Juul. Believe me, the FDA's move wasn't made w/o Altria's consent. It was about image & politics. Some form of an Altria e-cigarette product will be approved & released.

I tend to agree with this. Juul has newer products in the pipeline that the FDA likes better. They knew that Juul would get an emergency stay order, so their existing products could stay on the market. I'd bet that the FDA will approve Juul's newer products before they have to stop selling the old ones.


.

 

[Rossum]

Juul has newer products in the pipeline that the FDA likes better.

If the rumors are correct, they're bluetooth enabled so they'll only work in presence of a phone they're paired to; a phone that has been proven to belong to someone who's at least 21 years old. This of course will require a Juul app on the phone, which definitely would never be used to report all sorts of interesting data back to Juul/Altria, right?

The more I think about this the more I like my mechanical squonkers.

Your theory has merit though. It lets the FDA look good to the ANTZ contingent in Congress, while not upsetting the Juul/Altria applecart too much.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

The more I think about this the more I like my mechanical squonkers.

The more I think about it the more I like just about anything i have. Would suck to have to do all that just to vape! GEEEEEEEEEZ!

 

[Bliss Doubt]

Well there is one important health effect of Juul the FDA should be aware of. It gives women a firmer bust.

 

[BillW50]

If the rumors are correct, they're bluetooth enabled so they'll only work in presence of a phone they're paired to

Well the Apple Store banned all vaping Apps a few years ago. And I believe the Google Store soon followed. So that only leaves the Microsoft Store that still allows vape related Apps. And Windows 10 phones has been out of production since 2017.