Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

skoony

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wow really? so does this mean when current stock of prebottled eliquid runs out after 8/8/16 that shops will no longer be able to make and sell their eliquid? That is not how I understood it, I thought as long as it was the exact same eliquid recipes they had been making before that date they could continue to make it...

I saw where it was determined that any new mixing is new manufacturing. So, only what's been "manufactured" before the August deadline will be allowed, including mixing.

That's not what I'm saying. Stuff already on the shelves or supplied from elswhere that was mixed before the August date is OK.

And the only part I'm certain of, is that mixing is manufacturing. I hate all this pretending that one thing is really another, just by FDA's saying so.

Directly from the FDA website:

"If you operate a vape shop that mixes or prepares liquid nicotine or nicotine-containing e-liquids, or creates or modifies any type of ENDS, you are considered a manufacturer and must comply with all of the legal requirements for tobacco product manufacturers."

I seen the post by Bill in the other thread and and was dumb founded. I tagged him
and asked for clarification. Bill implied in his post (which i have seen repeated on comments
on a least one other site) that the FDA was planning to do this.

My concerns and conclusions are the same as many of you have posted.
If a B&M is mixing juice they simply are just another manufacturer like any
other manufacturer as defined in the reg.'s. Mt. Baker fills orders as they
are received. I am pretty sure they are mixed as ordered upon confirmed order.
Bottled,packaged and out the door. I believe there system is highly automated
and needs not to depend on pre-bottled stock in every conceivable blend of
the products they sell. My conclusion is if the FDA thinks they can just
walk into B&M's and shut down there mixing or re-bottling operations,
They have to stop Mt. Baker also as the B&M's and Mt.Baker for all
intents and purposes are in the same legal classification. They are both
manufacturers of tobacco products.

If Bills sources are right I for one hope the FDA tries to close down the
B&M's. I am not a lawyer and have never had any formal legal education
but, even I can say with confidence this would be at minimum a violation
of the equal protection under the law clause. If challenged in court it could
jeopardize the whole deeming process. Can you imagine the reaction of
all the clueless customers ? While imagining the reaction of all the cloud
bro's I am conflicted to whether or not I should laugh or cry.
:2c:
Regards
Mike
 

Robino1

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There is a really big "Report Corruption" button near the bottom of this page:

Project on Government Oversight

Everyone should click on it.
What to say? I don't know what words to use.

I would like to have the FDA investigated for overreaching?

A little guidance is needed. I'm a smart person but am not exactly sure what this is or how to use it to our advantage.

Thanks for finding it but maybe someone smarter than I can figure out how to use this tool!!
 

mikepetro

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Please check the link and support this project/movie. The public needs to know the truth about vaping. I'm not planning being one of the billion lost next century.

While I am 1000% in favor of this documentary, I fear sharing this to non-smokers/vapers because it comes off sounding so "conspiracy theory" kooky.

I find myself thinking the same thing when I talk to non-vaping friends about all of this. I can just see the visions in their head that I am wearing a tinfoil hat!!!!

I dont know how to talk about this without getting passionate, and I come off sounding like a kook to the non-initiated!!!
 

SeniorBoy

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That is correct.

"and will only be able to sell prebottled e-liquid products that were already on the market on 8/8/16" means e-liquids that were already being made and sold previous to 8-9-16 can still be made and sold after. It doesn't mean e-liquid products that were already on the shelf.

No new products after 8-8-16 means exactly what it says, no NEW products after 8-8-16. If an e-liquid is being sold before 8-8-16, it's not new. Whatever you've been vaping before 8-8-16, you'll still be able to vape after 8-8-16. Well, for a couple of years anyway.

+1 Thank you for clarifying this. :)

I DIY and so do many of you and I hope all of you will sooner rather than later. :)

This little "what if" illustrates why I think innovation, tweaks, software updates, mod revisions, etc all STOP on 8-8-16 unless a given Manufact files a proper PMTA which IMHO is doubtful. All of the following actions on or after 8-8-16 will require a PMTA:

- I changed my VG/PG supplier
- I changed my NIC supplier
- I changed the "formula" by 0.25% because my vapers didn't like the spice tone
- No more firmware upgrades via eScribe, PV, name your vendor
- Yes, we know it sometimes auto fires but tweaking it requires a PMTA
- We can fix the bug for your DNA 200 screen via Escribe BUT that will require a PMTA which we can't offord

I could list more and I'm sure you could list more.

Stay strong!
 

bigdancehawk

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+1 Thank you for clarifying this. :)

I DIY and so do many of you and I hope all of you will sooner rather than later. :)

This little "what if" illustrates why I think innovation, tweaks, software updates, mod revisions, etc all STOP on 8-8-16 unless a given Manufact files a proper PMTA which IMHO is doubtful. All of the following actions on or after 8-8-16 will require a PMTA:

- I changed my VG/PG supplier
- I changed my NIC supplier
- I changed the "formula" by 0.25% because my vapers didn't like the spice tone
- No more firmware upgrades via eScribe, PV, name your vendor
- Yes, we know it sometimes auto fires but tweaking it requires a PMTA
- We can fix the bug for your DNA 200 screen via Escribe BUT that will require a PMTA which we can't offord

I could list more and I'm sure you could list more.

Stay strong!
The FDA knows that these.requirements will stop innovation. They're stupid, but not so stupid as to not know that. It's what they want. If this had been in place a year ago and every manufacturer and juicemaker had submitted the required paperwork.for every change and innovation, the FDA couldn't have processed them all before the next millennium. Nope, they want a very few closed systems if for no other reason than.it would then be a manageable situation.
 

ZeroedIn

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What to say? I don't know what words to use.

I would like to have the FDA investigated for overreaching?

A little guidance is needed. I'm a smart person but am not exactly sure what this is or how to use it to our advantage.

Thanks for finding it but maybe someone smarter than I can figure out how to use this tool!!
Hi, Robin.

Yeah, me neither at the moment, but it looks like another avenue that could be used. I'll expend a few brain cells on it over the next few days. People smarter than us might be able to provide some guidance in the mean time.
 

zoiDman

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Does anyone else get the feeling that the FDA was secretly behind all these vape surveys we've been filling out, over the last few years?

It seems like they know EXACTLY what to "cover" in the regs...

o_O

Why would the FDA need to Sock Puppet surveys? Everything that they (or Anyone Else) would want to know about Vaping is right here.

The ECF is a Public Forum.
 

Robino1

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o_O

Why would the FDA need to Sock Puppet surveys? Everything that they (or Anyone Else) would want to know about Vaping is right here.

The ECF is a Public Forum.
I have a feeling you are correct.

Not only here, but remember when CASAA and other groups where in those closed door meetings with the FDA? The ones where CASAA and other groups and individuals were not allowed to disclose what was said? I bet a lot of their information came from there too.

The FDA can get their information from almost any avenue. It is not secret what we vape, how we vape, where we buy our stuff. They have ears everywhere.

So here ya go FDA :censored: YOU!
 

zoiDman

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That is correct.

"and will only be able to sell prebottled e-liquid products that were already on the market on 8/8/16" means e-liquids that were already being made and sold previous to 8-9-16 can still be made and sold after. It doesn't mean e-liquid products that were already on the shelf.

No new products after 8-8-16 means exactly what it says, no NEW products after 8-8-16. If an e-liquid is being sold before 8-8-16, it's not new. Whatever you've been vaping before 8-8-16, you'll still be able to vape after 8-8-16. Well, for a couple of years anyway.

Not Challenging what you are say'n...

But How Exactly would a Vape Shop prove to the FDA that the e-Liquids they are Mixing on a given Day is Exactly the Same as what they were Mixing at some Previous time?
 

sparkky1

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While I am 1000% in favor of this documentary, I fear sharing this to non-smokers/vapers because it comes off sounding so "conspiracy theory" kooky.

I find myself thinking the same thing when I talk to non-vaping friends about all of this. I can just see the visions in their head that I am wearing a tinfoil hat!!!!

I dont know how to talk about this without getting passionate, and I come off sounding like a kook to the non-initiated!!!

Pharma has know the truth for years New Nicotine Inhaler May Help Smokers Quit
Don't you think it's time they stop twisting the "facts" just for financial gains ?
Electronic Cigarettes
Cessation Counseling / There is not yet enough evidence for clinicians to counsel their patients who are using tobacco products to use e-cigarettes as a primary cessation aid ? seriously ? Prescription NICOTROL® Inhaler (nicotine inhalation system) | Safety Info
E-cigarette versus nicotine inhaler: comparing the perceptions and experiences of inhaled nicotine devices. - PubMed - NCBI
While i do fully support Aaron's work, he need's to get his video in the states and start streaming
 

zoiDman

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I'm not sure if anyone has caught this yet, but in order to become a "tobacco product manufacturer" a shop will have to submit an application to the BATF. They issue permits in about 65 days, are able to freely inspect your facility, and basically do whatever they want. The site says that it is free to apply. Also of note there appears to be special taxes required. https://www.ttb.gov/tobacco/manufacturer_products.shtml

So if mixing shops can apply and become approved to be tobacco product manufacturers they will be able to sell mixed juice that was already being produced prior to 8/10. At least for 2 years...

Unfortunately... It goes a Little Farther than that.

Individual States/Counties/Cites can have varying Requirements to sell "Tobacco Products". And if you can Not meet a State/County/City requirement, you might be SOL.
 

Tucsonbroker

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Not Challenging what you are say'n...

But How Exactly would a Vape Shop prove to the FDA that the e-Liquids they are Mixing on a given Day is Exactly the Same as what they were Mixing at some Previous time?

They won't. It would be impossible for them to request and receive past orders (which could be altered) for the thousands of permutations of end recipes for the thousands of producers. They do know that very few will be able to afford the application and will terminate business in 2 years. So if things are not totally enforceable for the next 2 years its a small price for them to pay for their long term.
 

Qew

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Not Challenging what you are say'n...

But How Exactly would a Vape Shop prove to the FDA that the e-Liquids they are Mixing on a given Day is Exactly the Same as what they were Mixing at some Previous time?
Batch numbers and testing on each of those batches? This would be something a huge company might be able to pull off, but it seems the idea is to eliminate all the little guys. It's not a drug, but being held to pharmaceutical quality controls.
 

sparkky1

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snork

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Out of curiousity, has anyone tried the NKTR line of TFN based e-liquids?
Yes. The flavor wasn't my cup of tea (guava), but it was certainly e-liquid. The TFN (tobacco free nicotine) seemed unremarkable in that I couldn't differentiate it from any other.
 

Tucsonbroker

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