Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[skoony]

The general public likes to compartmentalize others into groups, and the opposition knows how to exploit that. All they need is one inarticulate hipster cloud-chasing ..... to speak out on the evening news about how it's his right to blow vapor rings wherever he damned-well pleases, sprinkling a bunch of "um"s and "know wut I'm sayin"s in his 30 second sound byte, and now ALL OF YOU ARE JUST LIKE HIM to the people who's opinions we need to win.

We are are the same page generally except for one thing.
Where are the videos or pictures of cloud chasers (hipsters or not) practicing there behavior
in any public venue. For two years I have pleaded for actual pictures of this happening and
the only response I have received are pictures from obvious vaping events or staged productions
from the YouTube. Along with the 'why would i take a picture" Dah!?
All this from a culture with cell phones,free long distance and built in camera and video
used to document their entire existence to post in social media groups.

I believe the possibility that Big foot exists more than any actual rude vaper ambushed
gramma in the cereal aisle and then proceeded to hose the babies down in the diaper aisle.
I am sure somewhere at sometime someone acted very rudely. Now some one explain to
me why an act of Congress or preemptive regulations could,can or,would prevent such
behavior.
Regards
Mike

 

[frizzy_tyger]

Like I said, I agree, but understand the other view. It might be able to be explained better by someone who holds that opinion, but I'll take a crack at it.

"There needs to be a complete separation between smoke and vapor."

Not my view, and now that I tried, I realize, I'm not able to do a good job of explaining the others' views.

Sorry for misunderstanding, I had thought you were expressing your view and I wasn't trying to come across in a negative way. Just IMO the ship of us seperating the two has sailed. Maybe in 20 years when none of us have gotten any horrible diseases we could turn it arround.

Though if any of us do they will probably just say it was obviously the "horrible vaping" and not the previous smoking.

 

[nicnik]

Sorry for misunderstanding, I had thought you were expressing your view and I wasn't trying to come across in a negative way. Just IMO the ship of us seperating the two has sailed. Maybe in 20 years when none of us have gotten any horrible diseases we could turn it arround.

Though if any of us do they will probably just say it was obviously the "horrible vaping" and not the previous smoking.

Another point about it. I have friends who have used cigars and pipes for harm reduction, and eventually quit smoking altogether. Decades ago, in fact.

 

[classwife]

The stupidity of all this is mind boggling.

 

[nicnik]

I believe the possibility that Big foot exists more than any actual rude vaper ambushed
gramma in the cereal aisle and then proceeded to hose the babies down in the diaper aisle.

I don't agree with your post enough for the like button, but this part is classic!

LOL!

 

[nicnik]

The stupidity of all this is mind boggling.

Not sure what you're referring to, but I don't envy the fact that you have the FDA to put up with, AND moderating its victims.

 

[rosesense]

I have been following this thread closely and I agree with most of what is proposed. Maybe my judgement is skewed because of where I live (some things are legal here and not elsewhere and vaping has been regulated as smoking for quite some time) but I am not sure that trying to educate the public one on one at this point will have much effect. I tried that early on and got into debates at outdoor events and such. The average person would quote some article or gov statement about how bad vaping is and didn't want to hear about any studies or how it was less harmful than smoking, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't think the FDA/gov cares about studies, harm reduction or saving lives, I really believe it is all about the money. I don't mean to sound negative but I did work in a government job for almost 20 years and politics and money were always the top considerations (even when the issue was safety for the most vulnerable).

I believe it will take vendors, attorneys and legal maneuvering to take this on. The sad part is that in my experience, gov doesn't care about lawsuits because assistant ag's will represent and if they lose any money, well....it isn't their money, now is it? Taxpayers ultimately pay for any losses.

 

[wiredlove]

I don't agree with your post enough for the like button, but this part is classic!

LOL!

All together now "gram-ma got run over by a cloud chaser... Shopping one Christmas Eve"

 

[StormFinch]

Article is loooooong, but excellent reading. Not so much geared toward deeming, but more to taxation. Still, it wraps up the "safer than cigarettes" argument in a nutshell.

Vapor Products and Tax Policy

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

We are are the same page generally except for one thing.
Where are the videos or pictures of cloud chasers (hipsters or not) practicing there behavior
in any public venue. For two years I have pleaded for actual pictures of this happening and
the only response I have received are pictures from obvious vaping events or staged productions
from the YouTube. Along with the 'why would i take a picture" Dah!?
All this from a culture with cell phones,free long distance and built in camera and video
used to document their entire existence to post in social media groups....

Really? You should check out this new website. It'll show you pretty much anything you type into it:

Www.google.com.

Ironically enough, one of the first things that comes up when you type in "vaper blowing clouds in public" is a list of threads from this very site.

For example, you get a thread started by this nozzle:
Blowing clouds in public... (vid)

Now, granted, the video he posted to showcase his skillz was shot in his boy'z momzez' living room (yo), but his post was about the weird looks he gets when he does this in public, and how stupid it is that anyone would object, since everyone likes the smell of cantaloupe, right.

Of course it happens. You don't have to ask the opposition for a picture. Just poll your own ranks. There are some amongst us who will declare it with equal parts pride, ignorance, and obliviousness.

Just realize, the next time you try to sell someone on the benefits of vaping, that there's at least a chance that the guy who started the thread above is the last guy they heard from.

Or, worse yet, he may be the next guy they talk to.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

I wonder if something like this would help:

1. Put together some paperwork about what really goes into e-juice and how these items are used all the time for human consumption (for example, include that propylene glycol is used in asthma inhalers), and point out that while e-juice CAN be sold with up to 24m or 30mg of nicotine, it is sold in these variations to allow people who want to quit smoking to reduce their nicotine consumption by steps if they choose to, and that e-juice is ALSO SOLD with 0mg of nicotine -- this info can all go on one sheet or less. Include a copy of the study by the Royal College of Physicians. Include a brochure or paper with a link to CASAA and/or this Forum, with an invitation to come and ask any questions they may have, read the many reports of former smokers who have been helped by this technology. Include information that the FDA is out to completely ban this proven life-saving alternative to cigarettes and encourage them to speak out about reversing this ban.

Don't make the paperwork anymore lengthy than it needs to be -- 2 or 3 pieces of paper, possibly designed as a foldable brochure, is plenty. Print out a bunch of copies.

2. Create a simple sidewalk board that says (in neat cap letters) "The Truth About Vaping and e-Cigs", somewhere in height between knees and waist so that passersby can read it.

3. Go and spend a few hours in a small group (2-5 people) standing on parking lot in front of your chosen vape shop (who should be willing to give you permission), and hand out the papers/brochure to people who pass by -- to those who say "not interested", simply reply that "the FDA regulations also affect YOUR freedoms even if you neither smoke nor vape" (because it's a huge government overreach into freedoms of choice).

If your town/city doesn't prohibit it, you could also set up on street corners. I'd advise not blocking sidewalks or vaping huge clouds that could put people off so that they won't even take the handout, don't force them to walk through it.

Maybe in other places where people are allowed to stand around and give brochures out, you could title the brochure "How the FDA is using Your Tax Dollars to Crush Life-Saving Technology and Freedom of Choice".

Anyone can do this from where they are.

And, this is the other side of the community- the one that actually has a chance of saving it.

One change I'd make to your tactic, Bear, is to change up the way you talk about the nic levels. Don't leave it to interpretation why the 0mg exists.

Make it the GOAL.

The nic levels are scientifically derived, proven milestones by which the hopelessly addicted smoker can claw themselves free of tobacco, rung by bitter rung.

We're addicts. This is our methadone.

We desperately want to be free.

Won't you please help us?

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

There are a lot of good ideas in this community, but we lack maturity and the battle-hardened tactical savvy of the other demonized industries.

We need to have the best ideas gathered up, sorted, selected, polished, and pushed out as activism directives.

I don't like the idea of speaking my views according to a script any more than anyone else, but this industry is too young and naive to fight according to its gut. It needs some constructive direction.

 

[skoony]

Really? You should check out this new website. It'll show you pretty much anything you type into it:

Www.google.com.

Ironically enough, one of the first things that comes up when you type in "vaper blowing clouds in public" is a list of threads from this very site.

For example, you get a thread started by this nozzle:
Blowing clouds in public... (vid)

Now, granted, the video he posted to showcase his skillz was shot in his boy'z momzez' living room (yo), but his post was about the weird looks he gets when he does this in public, and how stupid it is that anyone would object, since everyone likes the smell of cantaloupe, right.

Of course it happens. You don't have to ask the opposition for a picture. Just poll your own ranks. There are some amongst us who will declare it with equal parts pride, ignorance, and obliviousness.

Just realize, the next time you try to sell someone on the benefits of vaping, that there's at least a chance that the guy who started the thread above is the last guy they heard from.

Or, worse yet, he may be the next guy they talk to.

I have in the course of two years or more have done each and everything you have suggested
with out ever finding a actual verified picture nor verified story of any such behavior that actually
took place somewhere,anywhere. Never. Remember I have never denied that rude vaping
has ever occurred just that I nor anyone one else for what ever reason that has never seen it
can never get our hands of actual proof. I wont bother to mention there are three basic scenarios
that keep getting repeated time and again with minor variations once in a while that indicate
sympathetic repetition or rhetorical hyperbole. I have yet to hear of the rude vaper when called out apologized for their unthinking behavior and promised it wont happen again. That would be a real
man bites dog story.

By the way I can't find where you posted pictures of this mysterious rude vaping phenomenon.
In the meantime do you want some pictures of my Big Foot hunt in the woods surrounding Lake
Itasca?
Regards
Mike

 

[DC2]

One change I'd make to your tactic, Bear, is to change up the way you talk about the nic levels. Don't leave it to interpretation why the 0mg exists.

Make it the GOAL.

The nic levels are scientifically derived, proven milestones by which the hopelessly addicted smoker can claw themselves free of tobacco, rung by bitter rung.

Anybody familiar with my posting history knows I hate what you just said.

Yeah, I'm the guy that hated the last thing you said too, although I had to agree with it.
And yeah, once again I hate what you said above, but kind of agree.

But what I personally believe very strongly is that some nicotine is GOOD for you.
Better, probably than NOT having any.

Having said that, you are correct that painting such a picture is our best bet.
Better than trying to convince the world of the real truth about nicotine.

But in the long run, my goal is and will always be to change the view of nicotine.
And I'm pretty sure my goal, unfortunately, coincides with the long term goals of Big Pharma.

I hate that too.

 

[halonut]

All together now "gram-ma got run over by a cloud chaser... Shopping one Christmas Eve"

I worry about getting run over by the cloud crowd when I'm driving...seriously I have nothing against them but they are going to (or already have) cause some accidents - If I can't see the driver the driver can't see me.

Big clouds have their time & place...a moving automobile is not one of them.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

Anybody familiar with my posting history knows I hate what you just said.
Yeah, I'm the guy that hated the last thing you said too, although I had to agree with it.

And yeah, once I again, I hate what you said above, but kind of agree.

But what I personally believe very strongly is that some nicotine is GOOD for you.
Better, probably than NOT having any.

Having said that, you are correct that painting such a picture is our best bet.
Better than trying to convince the world of the real truth about nicotine.

But in the long run, my goal is and will always be to change the view of nicotine.
And I'm pretty sure my goal, unfortunately, coincides with the long term goals of Big Pharma.

I hate that too.

I hate it too.
I like caffeine, too.

I know there is nothing wrong with taking a few mg of nicotine everyday. You know there is nothing wrong with it.

Hell, we both even know the reason we wanted away from tobacco was not the nicotine, but the tar and arsenic and everything else.

Unfortunately, we don't have time (2 years) to teach THEM that.

We probably don't even have time to win their hearts as hopeless addicts short on options, but that's our best shot.

We can fight the personal freedom and war of facts later, assuming we can mange to win a battle or two on the public sympathy front.

If we do that, then I'll gladly throw my arms in on your war against the war on nicotine.

I just have too many people that I love addicted to cigarettes, including myself, to lose sight of the real danger in front of us.

Vaping, as a general privilege, is the closest alligator to the boat.

 

[drysprocket]

There are a lot of good ideas in this community, but we lack maturity and the battle-hardened tactical savvy of the other demonized industries.

We need to have the best ideas gathered up, sorted, selected, polished, and pushed out as activism directives.

I don't like the idea of speaking my views according to a script any more than anyone else, but this industry is too young and naive to fight according to its gut. It needs some constructive direction.

Yup, I truly can't believe a leader still hasn't stepped forward to organize everyone yet. Of course, I'm sure we'll get our metaphorical John Conner only after the machines take over to lead the resistance...of course by then, it'll be too late.

Right now, we have the high ground to a very small extent; implementing change is hard and the FDA although having every resource imaginable, is actually at their weakest right now. Once these changes are all in place though, rolling them back will be infinitely more difficult than it is right now.

Weekly reminder to our imaginary leader- whoever he or she is...there's still time to cowboy the eff up. The clock is ticking though.

 

[The Ocelot]

I can attest to this. In moments of boredom, Oci has been known to feed the same bit of text through one google translate language and into another, multiple times, until what it finally spits out no longer resembles what went in.

I might try that with some of the Deeming regs.

 

[frizzy_tyger]

Another point about it. I have friends who have used cigars and pipes for harm reduction, and eventually quit smoking altogether. Decades ago, in fact.

This is the first I've heard of cigars or pipes being harm reducing. Most of the people I know who smoke them don't smoke on a daily basis though so I could see it. I'll have to look into it, just curious about it.

 

[nicnik]

I accidentally left out the part at the end, that said where the money actually ended up going. It was supposed to go to the quit line to help veterans with their 30% smoking rate. But instead:

The money was awarded to the Springfield-based lung association to retrofit engine fleets in Illinois, Wisconsin and Indiana, but most of the funds were spent on fleets in Indiana, records show.

Wanna up that "Wow!" to "Wower!"?

EDIT: I think I was mistaken with this follow-up to the first post. The article seems to have been discussing two different grants to the Lung Association.

My confusion may have been from the way the article was written. In fact, the Tribune hasn't been much of a Durbin fan over the years, so, maybe it wasn't entirely unintentionally a bit confusing.

Replying to my own message here, to make sure the edit gets noticed.