Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[skoony]

The pretty girl doesn't look like she has a cigarette addiction.

They should use this guy.

Mike

 

[drum747]

I have been spending a lot of my time on twitter and around the Internet trying to counter the massive misinformation about vaping. Its crazy, "vaping kills!" and stuff like that. Doing my best to educate the misinformed or ignorant one link and discussion at a time. This is where the fight is. Public opinion and fighting the knee jerk reactionaries. It's insane out there. Even had to leave a comment on a Dr's website after he did a podcast praising the fda for 'saving the children", I'm sure I am preaching to the choir here but its worth it to take the opportunity to challenge people and their misinformation for the benefit and health of everyone.

 

[classwife]

I have been spending a lot of my time on twitter and around the Internet trying to counter the massive misinformation about vaping. Its crazy, "vaping kills!" and stuff like that. Doing my best to educate the misinformed or ignorant one link and discussion at a time. This is where the fight is. Public opinion and fighting the knee jerk reactionaries. It's insane out there. Even had to leave a comment on a Dr's website after he did a podcast praising the fda for 'saving the children", I'm sure I am preaching to the choir here but its worth it to take the opportunity to challenge people and their misinformation for the benefit and health of everyone.

Awesome ! Thank you !

 

[bigdancehawk]

Oh look! It could be sprayed right on to an atomizer!

That's not an atomizer, that's an attractive redhead.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

That's not an atomizer, that's an attractive redhead.

Thank you for that. I actually chuckled out loud.

Needed that.

 

[crxess]

I have been spending a lot of my time on twitter and around the Internet trying to counter the massive misinformation about vaping. Its crazy, "vaping kills!" and stuff like that. Doing my best to educate the misinformed or ignorant one link and discussion at a time. This is where the fight is. Public opinion and fighting the knee jerk reactionaries. It's insane out there. Even had to leave a comment on a Dr's website after he did a podcast praising the fda for 'saving the children", I'm sure I am preaching to the choir here but its worth it to take the opportunity to challenge people and their misinformation for the benefit and health of everyone.

Plaster this Everywhere:
http://www.vaporized.co.uk/wp-conte...rettes-according-to-public-health-england.png

 

[Woofer]

Hydrochloric Acid sounds scary, but it's in your stomach and found in foods: What Foods Are High in Hydrochloric Acid? However, I don't know why it would be needed in a NRT product.

It would be there to freebase the nicotine.

 

[GeorgeS]

So what is the bottom line here?

• Aug 8th: no new products, existing products now are "tobacco products" and new labeling requirements go into effect? Confirmed ID/Age goes into effect?
• Many states tobacco laws will now (Aug 8th) apply to vaping stuff.
  
• Current products have 2yrs to file for FDA approval or pull their product off the market at the end of 2yrs. (I've heard it said: why file early?)
• Some producers might wait 2yrs before filing and then may get to stay in the market while their products fate is being decided.

 

[VNeil]

So what is the bottom line here?

• Aug 8th: no new products, existing products now are "tobacco products" and new labeling requirements go into effect? Confirmed ID/Age goes into effect?
• Many states tobacco laws will now (Aug 8th) apply to vaping stuff.
  
• Current products have 2yrs to file for FDA approval or pull their product off the market at the end of 2yrs. (I've heard it said: why file early?)
• Some producers might wait 2yrs before filing and then may get to stay in the market while their products fate is being decided.

Death by Boiling Frog Syndrome

 

[Str8vision]

“(i) Other tobacco products.—Any product not otherwise described under this section that has been determined to be a tobacco product by the Food and Drug Administration through its authorities under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act shall be taxed at a level of tax equivalent to the tax rate for cigarettes on an estimated per use basis as determined by the Secretary.”.

Text - S.1129 - 114th Congress (2015-2016): Tobacco Tax and Enforcement Reform Act

Yep. The sentence you've highlighted is what people need to be aware of. -If- I remember correctly I think the European countries are considering making 1ml of juice equal to 1 pack of cigarettes for "tax" purposes. Somewhere down the road the U.S. will be making an equivalency determination for the same purpose. It's not a matter of if.... And then of course there the states who may actually beat them to the feeding trough.

What I quoted should Scare the Hell out of Vaper's.

Not because few think that e-Liquids won't be Taxed. But because when the "Secretary" goes to Peg an e-Liquid Tax to use, what amount is going to be Consider to be Equivalent to 1 Pack of Cigarettes?

Remember all those Early Claims that 1 Prefilled .8ml Carto was Equal to a Pack of Cigarettes?

Since, after August, the FDA will have legally deemed e-juice to be a "tobacco product", it will fall under the requirements set forth in s.1129 Tobacco Tax and Enforcement Reform Act. Unless congress acts to specifically exclude it, e-juice "shall be taxed at a level of tax equivalent to the tax rate for cigarettes on an estimated per use basis as determined by the Secretary". For the purpose of estimating potential federal tobacco taxes required by the Tobacco Tax and Enforcement Reform Act, let's assume Europe's currently sought tax equivalency formula of "1ml of juice = 1 pack of cigarettes" was adopted by "the Secretary". The U.S. federal excise tax on a pack of cigarettes is currently $1.006, so the federal excise tax on a 30ml bottle of e-juice would be $30.18. That alone would be devestating, but it doesn't include -state taxes- which for cigarettes are, on average, much higher than the federal excise tax. The median or "average" state tax on cigarettes is currently $1.53 per pack (which doesn't include the hidden $0.45 per pack cost for state MSA payments). We also haven't included the cost of the juice itself which will -no doubt- rise to cover the vendor's expense for FDA application fees that the FDA currently estimates will cost >$400,000 "each". Compared to today's prices, 5 years down the road we could easily see the cost of premium e-juice tripling or quadrupling. We can only hope "the Secretary" chooses a more lenient tax equivalency formula but even then I expect juice prices will, at a minimum, nearly double.

Now let's try to estimate the potential federal excise tax for liquid nicotine based on the same proposed European equivalency formula, 1ml of e-juice = 1 pack of cigarettes. For this exercise let's be optimistic and set 18mg as the baseline nic strength. 1 liter (1000ml) of 100mg nic will make around 5555ml of e-juice at 18mg strength, therefore, for tax purposes, 1 liter of 100mg nic = 5555 packs of cigarettes. The current federal excise tax on a pack of cigarettes is $1.006, so the potential federal excise tax on 1 liter of 100mg nic would be $5588.33. That alone would be devastating but we still haven't addressed -state taxes- or the cost of the nic itself which -no doubt- will rise to cover FDA application fees the FDA currently estimates will cost >$400,000 "each". Could you imagine the cost of a liter exceeding $10K? lol Even if a more lenient tax equivalency formula were used, say 5ml of e-juice = 1 pack of cigarettes, 5 years down the road the cost for that liter of nic could still run in the "thousands". To be honest It wouldn't surprise me if many states eventually ban its sale to the general public. They'll claim it's for children's safety but we'll know the true reason....control/revenue.

 

[crxess]

So what is the bottom line here?

• Aug 8th: no new products, existing products now are "tobacco products" and new labeling requirements go into effect? Confirmed ID/Age goes into effect?
• Many states tobacco laws will now (Aug 8th) apply to vaping stuff.
  
• Current products have 2yrs to file for FDA approval or pull their product off the market at the end of 2yrs. (I've heard it said: why file early?)
• Some producers might wait 2yrs before filing and then may get to stay in the market while their products fate is being decided.

• Aug 8th: no new products, existing products now are "tobacco products" and new labeling requirements go into effect? Confirmed ID/Age goes into effect?

Freeing States from Taxation Debates - Equalization of Tobacco Taxes.

• Many(ALL) states tobacco laws will now (Aug 8th) apply to vaping stuff.
  
• Current products have 2yrs to file for FDA approval or pull their product off the market at the end of 2yrs. (I've heard it said: why file early?)

With FDA expecting 20-80 Initial PMTA Applications from Tens of Thousands of on Market Products.

• Some producers might wait 2yrs before filing and then may get to stay in the market while their products fate is being decided.

With Many Small Business and Manufacturers Closing Doors along the way due to High Cost of Compliance.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

...and just imagine the potential criminal penalties for getting caught selling it.

I've heard more than one person mention buying as much as they could afford, with the intent of profiting off it after the regs take effect.

They catch you selling one bottle of 12mg juice, and the 10 L in your freezer becomes 50,000 "packs" of illicit "cigarettes".

One step further down the rabbit-hole, those of us with personal-use stockpiles could face prosecution according to the "intent to distribute" rules that hang up so many people with one personal-use plant that totals 5# once the stems and even roots are weighed.

 

[drum747]

Just saw this on twitter:

 

[crxess]

...and just imagine the potential criminal penalties for getting caught selling it.

I've heard more than one person mention buying as much as they could afford, with the intent of profiting off it after the regs take effect.

They catch you selling one bottle of 12mg juice, and the 10 L in your freezer becomes 50,000 "packs" of illicit "cigarettes".

One step further down the rabbit-hole, those of us with personal-use stockpiles could face prosecution according to the "intent to distribute" rules that hang up so many people with one personal-use plant that totals 5# once the stems and even roots are weighed.

One must give a Protectionist Government Credit - They leave little for the people to decide for themselves.

Don't worry, I'm not driving

 

[DC2]

13.6mg/ml and 13.2ml in total.

Before I stopped using nicotine 5 months ago I was using around 1.5ml of 12mg per day.
So that Nicorette mist would have lasted me (theoretically) around 9 days.

When I quit smoking after 27 years I was at around 7 cigarettes per day.
So that came out to around one pack every 3 days or so.

Nicorette --> Two for $45 on Amazon / 18 days
Marlboro --> Around $6/pack or $36 / 18 days

 

[Mazinny]

So what is the bottom line here?

• Aug 8th: no new products, existing products now are "tobacco products" and new labeling requirements go into effect? Confirmed ID/Age goes into effect?
• Many states tobacco laws will now (Aug 8th) apply to vaping stuff.
  
• Current products have 2yrs to file for FDA approval or pull their product off the market at the end of 2yrs. (I've heard it said: why file early?)
• Some producers might wait 2yrs before filing and then may get to stay in the market while their products fate is being decided.

• Aug 8th: no new products, existing products now are "tobacco products" and new labeling requirements go into effect? Confirmed ID/Age goes into effect?

Yes to no new products and confirmed ID/Age requirements. In addition, no "modified risk claims" , "mis-branding" and "product adulteration " . But no to the " labeling requirements " and "warning statements". They don't kick in until May 10, 2018.

• Many states tobacco laws will now (Aug 8th) apply to vaping stuff.

I believe that won't be automatic, and further legislation is needed.

• Current products have 2yrs to file for FDA approval or pull their product off the market at the end of 2yrs. (I've heard it said: why file early?)

Yes, well technically two years and a couple of months now.

• Some producers might wait 2yrs before filing and then may get to stay in the market while their products fate is being decided.

Probably

 

[zoiDman]

Since, after August, the FDA will have legally deemed e-juice to be a "tobacco product", it will fall under the requirements set forth in s.1129 Tobacco Tax and Enforcement Reform Act. Unless congress acts to specifically exclude it, e-juice "shall be taxed at a level of tax equivalent to the tax rate for cigarettes on an estimated per use basis as determined by the Secretary". For the purpose of estimating potential federal tobacco taxes required by the Tobacco Tax and Enforcement Reform Act, let's assume Europe's currently sought tax equivalency formula of "1ml of juice = 1 pack of cigarettes" was adopted by "the Secretary". The U.S. federal excise tax on a pack of cigarettes is currently $1.006, so the federal excise tax on a 30ml bottle of e-juice would be $30.18. That alone would be devestating, but it doesn't include -state taxes- which for cigarettes are, on average, much higher than the federal excise tax. The median or "average" state tax on cigarettes is currently $1.53 per pack (which doesn't include the hidden $0.45 per pack cost for state MSA payments). We also haven't included the cost of the juice itself which will -no doubt- rise to cover the vendor's expense for FDA application fees that the FDA currently estimates will cost >$400,000 "each". Compared to today's prices, 5 years down the road we could easily see the cost of premium e-juice tripling or quadrupling. We can only hope "the Secretary" chooses a more lenient tax equivalency formula but even then I expect juice prices will, at a minimum, nearly double.

Now let's try to estimate the potential federal excise tax for liquid nicotine based on the same proposed European equivalency formula, 1ml of e-juice = 1 pack of cigarettes. For this exercise let's be optimistic and set 18mg as the baseline nic strength. 1 liter (1000ml) of 100mg nic will make around 5555ml of e-juice at 18mg strength, therefore, for tax purposes, 1 liter of 100mg nic = 5555 packs of cigarettes. The current federal excise tax on a pack of cigarettes is $1.006, so the potential federal excise tax on 1 liter of 100mg nic would be $5588.33. That alone would be devastating but we still haven't addressed -state taxes- or the cost of the nic itself which -no doubt- will rise to cover FDA application fees the FDA currently estimates will cost >$400,000 "each". Could you imagine the cost of a liter exceeding $10K? lol Even if a more lenient tax equivalency formula were used, say 5ml of e-juice = 1 pack of cigarettes, 5 years down the road the cost for that liter of nic could still run in the "thousands". To be honest It wouldn't surprise me if many states eventually ban its sale to the general public. They'll claim it's for children's safety but we'll know the true reason....control/revenue.

I believe that this is One (Only?) Area where BT will be aligned with Vaper's. And their Power to influence Tax Legislation will be something that many vaper's may see as a Good Thing.

Hard to say at what Basis an e-Liquid Tax would be pegged to? Average milligrams per day? Average Milliliters per day? Just numbers pulled out of the Hat?

All I know is I'm not sure How Many are going vote against Some amount of e-Liquid Tax?

That, And the Our Health Agencies will Not start saying Anything Positive about e-Cigarettes until a Federal Tax is in place.

 

[zoiDman]

...

• Many states tobacco laws will now (Aug 8th) apply to vaping stuff.

I believe that won't be automatic, and further legislation is needed.
...

If a State has an Existing Law that say states... "All Tobacco Products are Banned from use inside State Buildings."

Does the State need to go back and Amend this Law to include e-Cigarette Use? Or would the Statutory Federal Definition of an e-Cigarette being a "Tobacco Product" be enough for Enforcement?

 

[crxess]

Dear FDA,
I Stopped Smoking at age 58.
I am now age 62.5 and in Better Health.
I Have COPD which Has STOPPED Progressing.
I CANNOT go back to Smoking or it will KILL me.
I Suffer from a Long Term TOBACCO ADDICTION.
However I found an Alternative Solution that is Effective.
WHY does the GOVERNMENT ALLOW Alternative DRUG Solutions Yet separately Denying Smokers/Ex-Smokers that Same Possible Alternative Right?

They Say the Poison is in the Dose...........I Feel I am Overdosing on Government (FDA) Regulation.

Sincerely,
Dal

I Vape
I Vote

 

[DC2]

Hard to say at what Basis an e-Liquid Tax would be pegged to? Average milligrams per day? Average Milliliters per day? Just numbers pulled out of the Hat?

This will be the day the entire industry dies...

“(i) Other Tobacco Products.—Any product not otherwise described under this section that has been determined to be a tobacco product by the Food and Drug Administration through its authorities under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act shall be taxed at a level of tax equivalent to the tax rate for cigarettes on an estimated per use basis as determined by the Secretary.”.

section 5701(i) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, not later than 12 months after the date that a product has been determined to be a tobacco product by the Food and Drug Administration, the Secretary of the Treasury (or the Secretary of the Treasury's delegate) shall issue final regulations establishing the level of tax for such product that is equivalent to the tax rate for cigarettes on an estimated per use basis.


After reading that I placed one last order to extend my nicotine stash even further.
And I don't even use nicotine at the present time.