Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[zoiDman]

Purpose

Pub. L. 111–31, div. A, §3, June 22, 2009, 123 Stat. 1781, provided that: "The purposes of this division [see Short Title of 2009 Amendment note set out under section 301 of this title] are-

...

"(4) to provide new and flexible enforcement authority to ensure that there is effective oversight of the tobacco industry's efforts to develop, introduce, and promote less harmful tobacco products;

...

21 USC 387: Definitions

 

[DC2]

Does FDA have a definition of what tobacco is? To regulate a product made from a source don't they need to define it first?

This is the definition of a "tobacco product" according to Congress by way of the FSPTCA...
Frequently Asked Questions on the Passage of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (FSPTCA) Updated October, 2010

What products are considered to be tobacco products as defined by the Tobacco Control Act?
The term “tobacco product” means any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product. This includes, among other products, cigarettes, cigarette tobacco, roll-your-own tobacco, and smokeless tobacco.

What products are not considered to be tobacco products as defined by the Tobacco Control Act?
The term “tobacco product” does not apply to raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product. Nor does it mean something that is defined as a drug, device, or combination product under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.

 

[rosesense]

I bet the FDA is smiling smugly at the term 'Ends' since that is effectively what they have done with their regulations, ended an entire industry.

 

[Kent C]

This is the definition of a "tobacco product" according to Congress by way of the FSPTCA...
Frequently Asked Questions on the Passage of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (FSPTCA) Updated October, 2010

And this is directly addressed in the Consolidation lawsuit in Count Three - items 85 - 88.... and Count Six on definitions. Comparing what the TCA says vs. the deeming.

 

[coldgin96]

As far as I know Federal law trumps state.

That's open for debate, my friend. As for me, no comment.

 

[coldgin96]

I hope you are right, but I can't find anything to match what you're saying. I know 2 bills went through that would have designated vapor as 'not tobacco', both were vetoed by Governor they-don't-go-far-enough-or-tax-them Snyder. I haven't found any record of those vetoes being overturned. Plus, now that the FDA has deemed, I doubt Michigan will fight them.

New bills are on the table, and they're not just about the children.
Yanez Bills Label E-Cigarettes as Tobacco Products, Ban Sale to Kids Under 18

Michigan Legislature - House Bill 5686 (2016)
Michigan Legislature - House Bill 5687 (2016)
Michigan Legislature - House Bill 5688 (2016)

Yeah, I'd look but I suck. I'm pretty sure it happened and would bet $50 but not more. Jackie and I went so far as going to visit our State Senator to personally thank him. He said his wife quit smoking through vaping. He didn't see the point of calling vape products tobacco when if they want to tax vape products, they could pass a vape tax.

 

[crxess]

"(4) to provide new and flexible enforcement authority to ensure that there is effective oversight of the tobacco industry's efforts to develop, introduce, and promote less harmful tobacco products;

 

[zoiDman]

Yeah... And I think you are going to see this section Referenced Many Times in open court. As well as in an Appellate Brief(s).

 

[bnrkwest]

I am sorry but...I don't think defining what a plant is ..is not what they do. Science has already done that.
Here is what I found on Wiki
Tobacco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not trying to be funny.....but they do describe 'what is a cigarette' in Public Law. Just have to trace it back.

Well they talk about tobacco being dried & cured, they have no control over the plant and how it is grown or who grows it or even type of plant, there are differnt types of tobacco plants. My point is they are controlling the dried cured leaf product once it is manufactured into something. They gave no control over a barn full of green tobacco being hung to dry for instance. FDA does not control anything else about tobacco, not type, not where it is grown, who grows it or how it is cured, etc. They are limited already in their control of tobacco. I am thinking that anything that does not come from dried cured leaf is out of their jurisdiction already. They don't control the seed for instance or the green plant. Not sure anyone could even extract nicotine from the green plant or seeds but that falls outside of their control. It is only dried cured smokable tobacco they regulate. There are boundries on what they can and do control.

 

[crxess]

Well they talk about tobacco being dried & cured, they have no control over the plant and how it is grown or who grows it or even type of plant, there are differnt types of tobacco plants. My point is they are controlling the dried cured leaf product once it is manufactured into something. They gave no control over a barn full of green tobacco being hung to dry for instance. FDA does not control anything else about tobacco, not type, not where it is grown, who grows it or how it is cured, etc. They are limited already in their control of tobacco. I am thinking that anything that does not come from dried cured leaf is out of their jurisdiction already. They don't control the seed for instance or the green plant. Not sure anyone could even extract nicotine from the green plant or seeds but that falls outside of their control. It is only dried cured smokable tobacco they regulate. There are boundries on what they can and do control.

Probably should not give them any more ideas. The Ran with the last group.

 

[bnrkwest]

I have been reading up on tobacco, growing, curing, fermenting etc etc. I read that fermenting tobacco actually lowers the nicotine levels. Fermenting happens after it is dried. Apparently there is no license required to grow your own tobacco, only a license if you barter or sell it. Reason I am interested in all this is years ago where I lived tobacco was grown everywhere, it was cigar tobacco. The Amish even grew it and anyone that could get an allotment could grow it. It then went to an auction to be sold after it was harvested and dried but not fermented. I was curious to see if FDA had it's regulating hand on the whole process from seed sellers to growers, to auctions, etc, it seems USDA has some juristiction before it gets to a place where FDA steps in once it becomes a smokable product. But FDA does not regulate the process only final products. It is a real stretch for them to say an unfinished product is a tobacco product. They are not USDA so much of the tobacco plant is out of their hands.

 

[bnrkwest]

Did you know you can buy tobacco seed online? Seedlings too? Nothing prohibits home grown for your own use. Amazing, but vapers oh yeah regulate us into oblivion ! Crazy I know!

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Well they talk about tobacco being dried & cured, they have no control over the plant and how it is grown or who grows it or even type of plant, there are differnt types of tobacco plants. My point is they are controlling the dried cured leaf product once it is manufactured into something. They gave no control over a barn full of green tobacco being hung to dry for instance. FDA does not control anything else about tobacco, not type, not where it is grown, who grows it or how it is cured, etc. They are limited already in their control of tobacco. I am thinking that anything that does not come from dried cured leaf is out of their jurisdiction already. They don't control the seed for instance or the green plant. Not sure anyone could even extract nicotine from the green plant or seeds but that falls outside of their control. It is only dried cured smokable tobacco they regulate. There are boundries on what they can and do control.

I agree with everything you said, however, they specifically reference the chemical formula of Nicotine in the US Codes. And short of having to totally re-classify the vaping industry(which is highly doubtful) they were left with the choice of 'drug' or 'tobacco' classifications. And as much as I and everyone else in the vaping world hates it, Congress appears to have given the FDA almost total control(within the guidelines set by Congress) over tobacco products. The only thing I can find they can't do is an outright ban of tobacco products. Which we all know is what the FDA deeming regs are all about.
This whole business is wearing us all down, sometimes to the point of exhaustion. I am not saying give up fighting, I am saying that sometimes the lunacy of the over-reaching FDA tactics is just too unbelievable.

 

[bnrkwest]

I agree with everything you said, however, they specifically reference the chemical formula of Nicotine in the US Codes. And short of having to totally re-classify the vaping industry(which is highly doubtful) they were left with the choice of 'drug' or 'tobacco' classifications. And as much as I and everyone else in the vaping world hates it, Congress appears to have given the FDA almost total control(within the guidelines set by Congress) over tobacco products. The only thing I can find they can't do is an outright ban of tobacco products. Which we all know is what the FDA deeming regs are all about.
This whole business is wearing us all down, sometimes to the point of exhaustion. I am not saying give up fighting, I am saying that sometimes the lunacy of the over-reaching FDA tactics is just too unbelievable.

It is exhausting I agree but I like to really understand where the whole tobacco regulating starts and stops. The FDA only has a hand on it for final tobacco products. I am hoping legally that will stand up in court. They are stretching it making zero Nic flavored juice a tobacco product because it has not been produced as a final tobacco product. No Nic no tobacco out of their jurisdiction buy their own rules. Flavor in VG could be used in cooking as easily as vaping. Surely some lawyer can argue that.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

It is exhausting I agree but I like to really understand where the whole tobacco regulating starts and stops. The FDA only has a hand on it for final tobacco products. I am hoping legally that will stand up in court. They are stretching it making zero Nic flavored juice a tobacco product because it has not been produced as a final tobacco product. No Nic no tobacco out of their jurisdiction buy their own rules. Flavor in VG could be used in cooking as easily as vaping. Surely some lawyer can argue that.

The FDA does a lot of assuming when it comes to expected use of hardware also. That's why this is so crazy. Hopefully, a sensible judge will see right though their nonsense. FDA is so hell-bent of the total absence of nicotine in our society that that is all they will accept as harm reduction.

 

[bnrkwest]

The FDA does a lot of assuming when it comes to expected use of hardware also. That's why this is so crazy. Hopefully, a sensible judge will see right though their nonsense. FDA is so hell-bent of the total absence of nicotine in our society that that is all they will accept as harm reduction.

It is crazy! I had a salad today full of nicotine veggies, in reality they cannot totally regulate nicotine and they know that. A drug is anything that alters body chemistry, which is everything from air and water and food. They give drugs classifications so they can regulation it, but in reality we are all processing everything as a drug because everything we breath and eat and drink alters our body chemistry. They are just going Apy over nicotine that is found in our foods too.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

And we can all thank BT for this. Their tactics in the past border on criminal and all they get are fines and penalties. If you look further down on this page
21 USC 387: Definitions
to Findings (this is criminal in my book)

"(49) In August 2006 a United States district court judge found that the major United States cigarette companies have designed their cigarettes to precisely control nicotine delivery levels and provide doses of nicotine sufficient to create and sustain addiction while also concealing much of their nicotine-related research. USA v. Philip Morris, USA, Inc., et al. (Civil Action No. 99–2496 (GK), August 17, 2006)."

I think you mentioned neuro receptors before. And this is the reason I refused to try Chantix. Chantix blocks your neuro-receptors with a substance deposit so these signals wont get to the pleasure centers of the brain.

 

[WillyZee]

I bet the FDA is smiling smugly at the term 'Ends' since that is effectively what they have done with their regulations, ended an entire industry.

Or the FDA is thinking ... they are 8 years too late on hijacking Vaping.

Sent via iPhone

 

[bnrkwest]

And we can all thank BT for this. Their tactics in the past border on criminal and all they get are fines and penalties. If you look further down on this page
21 USC 387: Definitions
to Findings (this is criminal in my book)

"(49) In August 2006 a United States district court judge found that the major United States cigarette companies have designed their cigarettes to precisely control nicotine delivery levels and provide doses of nicotine sufficient to create and sustain addiction while also concealing much of their nicotine-related research. USA v. Philip Morris, USA, Inc., et al. (Civil Action No. 99–2496 (GK), August 17, 2006)."

I think you mentioned neuro receptors before. And this is the reason I refused to try Chantix. Chantix blocks your neuro-receptors with a substance deposit so these signals wont get to the pleasure centers of the brain.

Yes we all have nicotine receptors and seems some people have working ones better than others. I never did chantix either. Too scarey !

 

[Woofer]

Yes we all have nicotine receptors and seems some people have working ones better than others. I never did chantix either. Too scarey !

I guess you know everyone tests positive for nicotine at some level.
You, me and my friends.

Nevertheless it is pure evil. <nods>