Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

zoiDman

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Not interesting - frightening that one of the most advanced countries in the world can be so far behind.

"FDA is also responsible for advancing the public health by helping to speed innovations that make medicines more effective, safer, and more affordable and by helping the public get the accurate, science-based information they need to use medicines and foods to maintain and improve their health. FDA also has responsibility for regulating the manufacturing, marketing and distribution of tobacco products to protect the public health and to reduce tobacco use by minors."

What We Do

I'll give someone an Pre 8-8-16 Open System Atomizer if they can Read the above quote without Laughing.
 

Lessifer

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Okay, after thinking about it some more, I have come to the conclusion that if the grandfather date changes, the FDA is going to have to eliminate flavors. In that scenario I can see Big tobacco fairing better over the long run than I am currently imagining. The amount of tax that is eventually applied, and to which type of vaper products it is applied to, should also be a large factor in how the future is shaped, and I'm still working through that in my head. Then there's the availability of free-roaming nicotine. The whole thing gets pretty complicated.
My thoughts on this matter, flavors are definitely out, I'm a little surprised they're not gone already. Taxes(though not brought on by the FDA), will probably be $1 per pre-filled carto at the federal level, which would equate to what, $1 per ml? As for free roaming nic, if it's grandfathered in, I imagine a guidance on the concentration that can be sold directly to consumers. They can't regulate it down to zero, but they can call 100mg/ml a public health threat.
 

Eskie

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Okay, after thinking about it some more, I have come to the conclusion that if the grandfather date changes, the FDA is going to have to eliminate flavors. In that scenario I can see Big Tobacco fairing better over the long run than I am currently imagining. The amount of tax that is eventually applied, and to which type of vaper products it is applied to, should also be a large factor in how the future is shaped, and I'm still working through that in my head. Then there's the availability of free-roaming nicotine. The whole thing gets pretty complicated.

It is very complicated. There are so many variables and uncertainties that predicting what the market will look like a year from now, let alone three years from now, is difficult. You have enough litigation, legislation, and regulation and taxation on the state level, that predicting where it will all end up is conjecture.

Regardless of how things go, I do believe the casualty in the marketplace will be open systems. We might prefer them, we might find them more effective, but even if the predicate date is changed, without a clear statement as to how one will get a system approved, all we'll have left is whatever is currently legitimately sold in the US. Nothing new. That will still drive most B&M and small (probably some not so small ones too) online vendors out of business. Don't forget, regardless of the predicate date or even the pending legislation, advertising and marketing is getting hit too. How are those vendors going to reach out to new customers without being able to discuss the benefits of their products? If you can't find new customers, you've got a big problem.

OTOH, BT has less of an issue there, as they have an entire distribution system in place with their closed systems sitting right next to those cigarette packs. To the general public, those things are what e cigs are. They have little to no knowledge about "real" vaping gear. And how will they ever find out about open systems and their superiority to cigalikes when advertising and marketing is restricted by regulations?
 

mattiem

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I think there should be an "I agree" button alongside the Like button 'cause I sure don't like a lot of what is being said that I have clicked the Like button for but I definitely do agree with what is being said. All of this is so unbelievably frustrating :facepalm:
 

zoiDman

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I think there should be an "I agree" button alongside the Like button 'cause I sure don't like a lot of what is being said that I have clicked the Like button for but I definitely do agree with what is being said. All of this is so unbelievably frustrating :facepalm:

I Agree.
 

DC2

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OTOH, BT has less of an issue there, as they have an entire distribution system in place with their closed systems sitting right next to those cigarette packs. To the general public, those things are what e cigs are. They have little to no knowledge about "real" vaping gear. And how will they ever find out about open systems and their superiority to cigalikes when advertising and marketing is restricted by regulations?
I totally agree with this and understand the ramifications.
How are those vendors going to reach out to new customers without being able to discuss the benefits of their products? If you can't find new customers, you've got a big problem.
Word of mouth.

It's just a matter of how long it takes, and what can be done to slow it.
And they're already doing a fantastic job at slowing it down.

Dr. Carl Phillips once posted a chart that shows how word of mouth progresses.
I think we would have been approaching "critical mass" soon if it weren't for the propaganda.

But you can't stop word of mouth.
 

Kent C

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Price to dealer is a lot higher than that. I don't know about other states, but price to "agents" in NYC is $4 to $6 a pack according to the following. I believe that includes the Federal Excise tax of $ 1.01 though. The agent is then responsible for payment of state ( $ 4.35 a pack ) and local ( $ 1.50 a pack ) taxes, before selling on to wholesalers for about $ 0.11 profit per pack, who in turn make about $ 0.06 to $ 0.40 profit per pack. The retailer makes about $1 a pack profit as well. Add to that sales tax which results in the final cost of $ 14.00 a pack to the customer !

https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/cigarette/pub509.pdf

There are wholesale dealers, retail dealers and as you point out cigarette agents (in NY and perhaps other states as well). Not sure which the guy from RJR meant by 'dealer', but I'm assuming wholesale since he then confirms what you say - the $1 profit at the "store"(retailer).
 

Mazinny

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It is very complicated. There are so many variables and uncertainties that predicting what the market will look like a year from now, let alone three years from now, is difficult. You have enough litigation, legislation, and regulation and taxation on the state level, that predicting where it will all end up is conjecture.

Regardless of how things go, I do believe the casualty in the marketplace will be open systems. We might prefer them, we might find them more effective, but even if the predicate date is changed, without a clear statement as to how one will get a system approved, all we'll have left is whatever is currently legitimately sold in the US. Nothing new. That will still drive most B&M and small (probably some not so small ones too) online vendors out of business. Don't forget, regardless of the predicate date or even the pending legislation, advertising and marketing is getting hit too. How are those vendors going to reach out to new customers without being able to discuss the benefits of their products? If you can't find new customers, you've got a big problem.

OTOH, BT has less of an issue there, as they have an entire distribution system in place with their closed systems sitting right next to those cigarette packs. To the general public, those things are what e cigs are. They have little to no knowledge about "real" vaping gear. And how will they ever find out about open systems and their superiority to cigalikes when advertising and marketing is restricted by regulations?
You are absolutely right, we have incomplete information, so its all conjecture, by definition. I also agree that the future of open systems are more bleak.

I disagree slightly about the reason open systems have not caught on to the extent i expected in 2014, say. I think the main reason open systems haven't continued on the explosive growth trajectory of 2013 and 2014, is that they may have reached a saturation point. Most of those interested in the stuff we use have had access to them, they just aren't interested. I shoot pool twice a week and have interacted with many smokers and cigalike users. I used to be asked a lot of questions in 2014, not so much now. I have been given many reasons by smokers and cigalike users for not trying my system, or trying and giving up on them. They cite " lack of satisfaction ", " complication ", " form factor" , " fiddliness", " inconsistency" , etc.... It's been a year or two since I have heard anyone say they haven't had access to my type of device. They have access and just aren't interested.
 

Mazinny

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There are wholesale dealers, retail dealers and as you point out cigarette agents (in NY and perhaps other states as well). Not sure which the guy from RJR meant by 'dealer', but I'm assuming wholesale since he then confirms what you say - the $1 profit at the "store"(retailer).
I don't know what he meant either, but if he is truthful about " cost to dealers " , there is a lot of creative accounting involved ! Cost to agent, who is higher up on the chain than wholesale dealers is $ 118.45 per carton for premium brands in NYC. The Federal government makes $ 10.06 from that carton, NY state $ 43.50, NYC $ 15.00. Who makes the rest if not Altria or Reynolds. I realize they have to make MSA payments from that as well, but still, no matter how you cut it, they make a lot more than what the RJR guy claims.
 

Eskie

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I have been given many reasons by smokers and cigalike users for not trying my system, or trying and giving up on them. They cite " lack of satisfaction ", " complication ", " form factor" , " fiddliness", " inconsistency" , etc.... It's been a year or two since I have heard anyone say they haven't had access to my type of device. They have access and just aren't interested.

Those explanations are a big deal. Complicated, inconsistent systems will turn off many people. Just read about the difficulties here with equipment and juice and you realize there's a lot of room for improvement. And we're supposedly "advanced" users with lots of knowledge. It's tough to see that sold to a current smoker who's not super motivated.

As an ex-smoker and not someone who started just to blow clouds, I know if I had jumped straight into open systems I might not have stuck with it. That cigalike got me off cigarettes. What drove me to open systems was the quality of the experience, and the expense of all those cartridges.

Getting a smoker straight into an open system can be a struggle unless they're very motivated. The one bright spot I do see are the number of "new" closed systems coming out that will offer a user a much better experience than a gas station cigalike. From there, a user will either remain with it if satisfied, or perhaps move on to an open system if they want to possibly improve their e cig/vaping experience.
 

zoiDman

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People keep talking about there being a limit on flavors. They can always be added at home.

Sure. That isn't too hard to do with Liquid e-Liquids.

But it is a Bit Tougher with a Closed System Cartridge that is Chip Enabled to Stop Working after an OEM set amount of Puffs.
 

Lessifer

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People keep talking about there being a limit on flavors. They can always be added at home.
When I talk about any of this, I try to think from the perspective of someone who has never tried vaping before. If I were a smoker and you handed me the best setup out right now and a bottle of unflavored liquid and told me I'd have to find my own flavorings and add them myself, I'd probably say "thanks, but no."
 

Shawn Hoefer

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When I talk about any of this, I try to think from the perspective of someone who has never tried vaping before. If I were a smoker and you handed me the best setup out right now and a bottle of unflavored liquid and told me I'd have to find my own flavorings and add them myself, I'd probably say "thanks, but no."
And that's exactly what they want.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
 

DC2

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Those explanations are a big deal. Complicated, inconsistent systems will turn off many people. Just read about the difficulties here with equipment and juice and you realize there's a lot of room for improvement. And we're supposedly "advanced" users with lots of knowledge. It's tough to see that sold to a current smoker who's not super motivated.
I think there are a lot of easy to use systems out there that would get 85% of smokers to quit.
Think Ego Twist with a little, reliable, easy-to-fill tank.
And we're supposedly "advanced" users with lots of knowledge.
I think as "advanced" users many here are simply trying too hard.
Or making it harder than it has to be.
:)

But what do I know...
I drip on a 510 atomizer using an Ego Twist.
:laugh:
 

Mazinny

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Those explanations are a big deal. Complicated, inconsistent systems will turn off many people. Just read about the difficulties here with equipment and juice and you realize there's a lot of room for improvement. And we're supposedly "advanced" users with lots of knowledge. It's tough to see that sold to a current smoker who's not super motivated.

As an ex-smoker and not someone who started just to blow clouds, I know if I had jumped straight into open systems I might not have stuck with it. That cigalike got me off cigarettes. What drove me to open systems was the quality of the experience, and the expense of all those cartridges.

Getting a smoker straight into an open system can be a struggle unless they're very motivated. The one bright spot I do see are the number of "new" closed systems coming out that will offer a user a much better experience than a gas station cigalike. From there, a user will either remain with it if satisfied, or perhaps move on to an open system if they want to possibly improve their e cig/vaping experience.
Right on, we need innovation to continue on all fronts, open systems and closed systems alike ! And it will continue, regardless of what the FDA has in mind. It may be more difficult to have access in the short term, but they will not be able to stop innovation. That train has long left the station.
 

seminolewind

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Sure. That isn't too hard to do with Liquid e-Liquids.

But it is a Bit Tougher with a Closed System Cartridge that is Chip Enabled to Stop Working after an OEM set amount of Puffs.

First thing to happen would be how to remove the chip.
 

Semiretired

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I think as "advanced" users many here are simply trying too hard.
Or making it harder than it has to be.
:)

But what do I know...
I drip on a 510 atomizer using an Ego Twist.

Some of the latest systems coming out have gone a lot further than I would of ever imagined. There are a few with vaping that it is not just about stopping smoking anymore - it is about how far can I push the limits...
 

seminolewind

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When I talk about any of this, I try to think from the perspective of someone who has never tried vaping before. If I were a smoker and you handed me the best setup out right now and a bottle of unflavored liquid and told me I'd have to find my own flavorings and add them myself, I'd probably say "thanks, but no."

True. That's why B&M's are so important.
I guess there's a learning curve with everything.
If it's not the learning, it's the troubleshooting.
 
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