Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[seminolewind]

Some of the latest systems coming out have gone a lot further than I would of ever imagined. There are a few with vaping that it is not just about stopping smoking anymore - it is about how far can I push the limits...

You're right. After 7 years, I still stick to my mini aspire tank and eleaf istick. These systems now with air flow adj, juice adj, drip tips, etc. are beyond vaping to me.

edit: After 7 years , I still stick to simple systems like a mini aspire tank and........

 

[zoiDman]

First thing to happen would be how to remove the chip.

When I remove the Chip on my Inkjet Ink Cartridge(s), my Printer Doesn't Work anymore.

 

[zoiDman]

I think there are a lot of easy to use systems out there that would get 85% of smokers to quit.
Think Ego Twist with a little, reliable, easy-to-fill tank.

...

Wonder if Moving the Predicate Date to a timeframe for the Hardware you mentioned would be Easier to garner Support/Votes?

 

[zoiDman]

Wonder if Moving the Predicate Date to a timeframe for the Hardware you mentioned would be Easier to garner Support/Votes?

Mid 2014?

 

[Semiretired]

Wonder if Moving the Predicate Date to a timeframe for the Hardware you mentioned would be Easier to garner Support/Votes?

Got my vote for that. I would even be happy with early 2014.

 

[Lessifer]

Mid 2014?

It's unclear to me why 2014 would be more attractive than 2016 to the anti-vaping crowd, can you explain?

 

[DC2]

I think in conversations like this people often tend to treat vaping as one big market.
But it is not. There are quite a few niche markets here in our vaping world.

There are those like us here on this forum.
We are a small percentage of the entire vaping market.

And then there is the vast majority of potential vapers who aren't like us.
They have a laundry list of things they may or may not be interested in doing.

--Going to the black market for anything
--Adding flavor to flavorless liquid
--Building or rebuilding coils
--Removing the chip from a Vuse
--Spending a lot of money for prefilled pods or tanks
--Refilling pods or tanks
--Wearing a black hat, black shirt, and growing a beard

Any one of these things can stop a potential vaper from moving forward.
Changing the grandfather date is the current best option for helping these folks.

 

[zoiDman]

It's unclear to me why 2014 would be more attractive than 2016 to the anti-vaping crowd, can you explain?

For the Hard Core Anti-Vape Crowd (HCAVC) it wouldn't be attractive. But they aint gonna go for a move the Predicate Date anyway. So they are kinda a No Factor.

But to someone who has Moderate Views, and can see Benefits but also wants Control/Regulation, a Mid Range Date may be viewed as a Compromise.

I notice the term "Give Away" is used a lot by the HCAVC's when talk of a 2016 Predicate Date. A Mid 2014 date couldn't be called a "Give Away".

 

[bigdancehawk]

A Mid 2014 date couldn't be called a "Give Away".

We could call it Czechoslovakia.

 

[zoiDman]

We could call it Czechoslovakia.

 

[coldgin96]

Got my vote for that. I would even be happy with early 2014.

Fk that.

 

[Eskie]

I think there are a lot of easy to use systems out there that would get 85% of smokers to quit.
Think Ego Twist with a little, reliable, easy-to-fill tank.

I think as "advanced" users many here are simply trying too hard.
Or making it harder than it has to be.


But what do I know...
I drip on a 510 atomizer using an Ego Twist.

Hey, my first "step up" was one of those Halo kits with the clearo and Tribeca. And I LOVED it! So much better than that cigalike.

Problem was, once I saw how much better it was I was tempted by the "I can get it even better!" bug. Now I've got bunches of mods and tanks, drawers stuffed with junk, and bottles of DIY juice "steeping" for a week or two before being "ready" to vape. It's worse than building a wine cellar!

 

[Ca Ike]

I'm still catching up on this thread but there is one fact that is being glossed over lately.

Nothing on the market today is substantially equivalent to what was on the market in 2007. NOTHING

I have an e cig kit from 2007. The only things similar is the fact that it uses a battery and a coil. Everything on the market today including BT cigalikes is different in damn near every way. Type of battery, control circuitry, juice delivery method, pretty much everything.

This is the fact ,I believe, motivated Altria to back the change in grandfather date. I think their lawyer, in preparing SE filings for their cigalikes, realized they didn't have a chance in hell of getting approved that way and even worse with the change to the pmta in the final rule.

They also know the cigalikes have a big place in the market due to the convenience factor. Most of us can admit to grabbing a cigalike as an emergency backup when the need arose.

There are other benefits to be had as well. Not just the elimination of the MSA payments but potential partnerships with battery makers, juice companies, mod makers as well as potential future acquisitions.

The big loser in all this is actually BP. I've seen estimates as high as $100b in cessation and treatment drugs projected. The PMTA process is almost exactly what BP has to do for drugs with the exception of the populace studies.

 

[Eskie]

I think in conversations like this people often tend to treat vaping as one big market.
But it is not. There are quite a few niche markets here in our vaping world.

There are those like us here on this forum.
We are a small percentage of the entire vaping market.

And then there is the vast majority of potential vapers who aren't like us.
They have a laundry list of things they may or may not be interested in doing.

--Going to the black market for anything
--Adding flavor to flavorless liquid
--Building or rebuilding coils
--Removing the chip from a Vuse
--Spending a lot of money for prefilled pods or tanks
--Refilling pods or tanks
--Wearing a black hat, black shirt, and growing a beard

Any one of these things can stop a potential vaper from moving forward.
Changing the grandfather date is the current best option for helping these folks.

Totally agree! "Vaping" covers such a wide spectrum of users and products. Lumping it all together and imagining some one size fits all approach doesn't really work. It's a bit like the dozens of cigarette brands on the market and how a user developed a loyalty to a given brand. They were all tobacco in a paper tube usually with a cotton filter on one end (but not always) but I know for myself I would put a lot of effort into finding and smoking my"brand" rather than just some other cigarette (Marlboro Lights Gold, box, regular size).

It's going to be the loss of variety more than anything else which will deter smokers from transitioning over to vaping/e cig use. If there are only 3 cigalikes out there and you don't like them, tough, stick to smoking, or experiment with smoking cessation products.

 

[Ca Ike]

and... I was just calling BS on this part specifically, because the numbers don't add up.

It doesn't really matter though. When you follow the money, some goes to BT(whether that's $.50 per pack or $1.50), $1 goes to the federal government, a lot goes to the state and local government. On top of that the states get their MSA payments. Then, you have to consider all of the groups that get paid by the federal government/states for their involvement in "tobacco control." I can see BT wanting some products that are somewhat outside of that cycle, and I have no problem accepting that they would rather have vaping survive. They definitely don't lose if vaping disappears, but they win more if it doesn't.

Les, you are forgetting the $2+ tax in ca that is supposed to go for anti-smoking crap. That's what took cigs from $2-$2.50 a pack for camels to $4.85 back when the fed tax was still less that $1 a pack. That was the bill that gave ALA, AHA and AMA windfall profits from Ca alone. I forget the exact amount but it's over $300m annually.

 

[DC2]

It's going to be the loss of variety more than anything else which will deter smokers from transitioning over to vaping/e cig use. If there are only 3 cigalikes out there and you don't like them, tough, stick to smoking, or experiment with smoking cessation products.

Don't look now, but I think you just agreed with me.


My argument has been that changing the grandfather date will bury Big Tobacco.
And I think you just helped me to explain why that would be the long term outcome.

If there is no change to the grandfather date, there will be no loss of current variety.
And the current variety is more than enough to kill off Big Tobacco.

 

[Lessifer]

For the Hard Core Anti-Vape Crowd (HCAVC) it wouldn't be attractive. But they aint gonna go for a move the Predicate Date anyway. So they are kinda a No Factor.

But to someone who has Moderate Views, and can see Benefits but also wants Control/Regulation, a Mid Range Date may be viewed as a Compromise.

I notice the term "Give Away" is used a lot by the HCAVC's when talk of a 2016 Predicate Date. A Mid 2014 date couldn't be called a "Give Away".

I suppose anything is better than nothing, but it would still be a compromise that would leave us with arguably less safe alternatives than we have now. This whole idea of a predicate date, and anything coming out after that date facing an insurmountable approval process, is just counter to the idea of public health.

 

[Lessifer]

Les, you are forgetting the $2+ tax in ca that is supposed to go for anti-smoking crap. That's what took cigs from $2-$2.50 a pack for camels to $4.85 back when the fed tax was still less that $1 a pack. That was the bill that gave ALA, AHA and AMA windfall profits from Ca alone. I forget the exact amount but it's over $300m annually.

What tax in CA are you referring to? The state excise tax on cigarettes is $.87 and the federal excise tax is $1.01, but I included both of those.

 

[zoiDman]

I suppose anything is better than nothing, but it would still be a compromise that would leave us with arguably less safe alternatives than we have now. This whole idea of a predicate date, and anything coming out after that date facing an insurmountable approval process, is just counter to the idea of public health.

I'm just Throwing it Out There. And it Isn't something I would take off the table if I had the Power to do so.

Seems like 2016 vs 2007 is All or Nothing. And... well... all or nothing is All or Nothing.

Having something Is better than Nothing. It would Also provide a SE Pathway.

 

[Ca Ike]

What tax in CA are you referring to? The state excise tax on cigarettes is $.87 and the federal excise tax is $1.01, but I included both of those.

Started out under prop 99 as $.25 and has been increased since then as more program funding is needed. Most notably by the STAKE act. Prop 99 increases have not needed ballot votes. Just legislative approval.

There is also prop 29. I'm looking for the rest of them. Iirc the stake act made it separate from the excise tax but I can't find that info ATM. Sometime around 98-04 tobacco campaign funding became separate from the normal excise tax and that's when the ad blitz started enmasse