Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[AlleyKat]

May I ask, where from?

EDIT: Never mind. I'm freaking out. I'm good. Thank you anyway.

I used to order my nicotine liquid from RTS (since 2012) but when they went out of business, "Nicotine Giant" began selling what they claim to be RTS liquids & honor points earned previously with RTS.
I recently discovered, by recommendation of a fellow diy-er, "Nicotine River" & ordered 500ml @ 24mg....price with cheapest shipping was just under $20. Impressed by the product/scientific information provided about the nic liquid available through N.R. & the product is at least as good as RTS was.
I have not yet ordered from N.G. (the "new RTS"), therefore I can offer no real advice except pricing seems about the same as RTS.

 

[AlleyKat]

In addition to stocking up on a "should the worst happen" pile of liquid nicotine, I'm starting to wonder if it is time to start ordering & stockpiling mod building supplies....haven't even attempted a build since around 2012-13. It was a VV double battery 14500 mod in a 3 slot plastic battery box with model car break away connecters for firing button & 510 connection to use with various altoids/other similar sized tins that contained the battery box & VV components. White thing was a small 510 volt meter. All old school. Sub ohm wasn't part of the vape world, as far as I know, back then. Guess it's time to go over and talk to the ecf mod crew about new builds to handle sub ohm vaping & invest in a few good RTAs (as someone who drives for a living, dripping was/is not a safe option).

 

[ScottP]

In addition to stocking up on a "should the worst happen" pile of liquid nicotine, I'm starting to wonder if it is time to start ordering & stockpiling mod building supplies....haven't even attempted a build since around 2012-13. It was a VV double battery 14500 mod in a 3 slot plastic battery box with model car break away connecters for firing button & 510 connection to use with various altoids/other similar sized tins that contained the battery box & VV components. White thing was a small 510 volt meter. All old school. Sub ohm wasn't part of the vape world, as far as I know, back then. Guess it's time to go over and talk to the ecf mod crew about new builds to handle sub ohm vaping & invest in a few good RTAs (as someone who drives for a living, dripping was/is not a safe option).

Buy a DNA board, mount it in a small box with 510 connector and wire it to use your cigarette lighter in your car. Then get an EZ Dripper, use your favorite RDA and call it done with a permanent solution.

 

[AlleyKat]

Buy a DNA board, mount it in a small box with 510 connector and wire it to use your cigarette lighter in your car. Then get an EZ Dripper, use your favorite RDA and call it done with a permanent solution.

I'd worry our nanny-state might mistake it for a cell phone in my hand due to the cord - $148 fine in WA.
But I think we're sort of on the same page build-wise...thank you.

 

[ScottP]

One thing to note about the above solution, you will need to be aware of the amp limit of the fuse connected to your cigarette lighter. This can vary from car to car but can potentially be replaced with a bit higher if needed.

@AlleyKat Oh just curious but what did you disagree with in my post quoted below.

So the people losing money because of ecigarettes are suing because they aren't being banned fast enough? Yeah I think I may have a heart attack and die from NOT surprise.

 

[zoiDman]

Some Interesting Reading from the FDA...

C. Other products used to evade FDA tobacco product standards

The extent to which retailers and consumers can modify legal products into illicit products will depend upon the particular product standard in question. For example, with a standard limiting nicotine levels in a tobacco product, there may be components, parts, or accessories, as well as

non-tobacco products, which could be used to supplement the nicotine levels. For example, if e-cigarettes and concentrated e-liquids are not subject to that same product standard, and remain easy to purchase with higher nicotine concentrations, it may not require significant effort to add the liquid to a cigarette or other combusted product. While a nicotine product standard might contain provisions restricting the sale of such products, it is possible that a workaround would exist. Regardless of whether this results in a palatable product, it is illustrative of the experiments consumers may conduct in seeking to obtain more nicotine.

https://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/NewsEvents/UCM601047.pdf

 

[r055co]

Some Interesting Reading from the FDA...

C. Other products used to evade FDA tobacco product standards

The extent to which retailers and consumers can modify legal products into illicit products will depend upon the particular product standard in question. For example, with a standard limiting nicotine levels in a tobacco product, there may be components, parts, or accessories, as well as

non-tobacco products, which could be used to supplement the nicotine levels. For example, if e-cigarettes and concentrated e-liquids are not subject to that same product standard, and remain easy to purchase with higher nicotine concentrations, it may not require significant effort to add the liquid to a cigarette or other combusted product. While a nicotine product standard might contain provisions restricting the sale of such products, it is possible that a workaround would exist. Regardless of whether this results in a palatable product, it is illustrative of the experiments consumers may conduct in seeking to obtain more nicotine.

https://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/NewsEvents/UCM601047.pdf

I'll modify my Vaping gear/products for my personal use in anyway I see fit, there's not a damn thing they can do about it.

 

[zoiDman]

I'll modify my Vaping gear/products for my personal use in anyway I see fit, there's not a damn thing they can do about it.

I think that is what the FDA was Alluding to.

 

[r055co]

I think that is what the FDA was Alluding to.

Which is why they will attempt to classify anything into something they regulate, you know like requiring materials/products that don't have a trace of nicotine having a label that it does.

 

[ScottP]

I'll modify my Vaping gear/products for my personal use in anyway I see fit, there's not a damn thing they can do about it.

I think that is what the FDA was Alluding to.

I think it is less alluding to modifying equipment, than is is alluding to someone that smokes and is forced to buy "reduced nic" cigarettes might try adding nic by buying some unflavored nic juice and dropping some on his/her cigarettes and then letting them dry. Thus restoring the nic levels (or maybe even adding too much). One might think that scenario is too outlandish, but I have witnessed more than one person jonesing for a smoke so bad they were shifting through a work place smoke area's ashtrays looking for partially smoked cigarettes that others left behind. So now nothing would surprise me.

They could be talking about both but I think adding nic to reduced nic cigarettes is their main concern. I have no idea how they could fully stop it though.

 

[zoiDman]

I think it is less alluding to modifying equipment, than is is alluding to someone that smokes and is forced to buy "reduced nic" cigarettes might try adding nic by buying some unflavored nic juice and dropping some on his/her cigarettes and then letting them dry. Thus restoring the nic levels (or maybe even adding too much). One might think that scenario is too outlandish, but I have witnessed more than one person jonesing for a smoke so bad they were shifting through a work place smoke area's ashtrays looking for partially smoked cigarettes that others left behind. So now nothing would surprise me.

They could be talking about both but I think adding nic to reduced nic cigarettes is their main concern. I have no idea how they could fully stop it though.

Adding Nicotine to Cigarettes by putting Unflavored on them?

OK... I guess that could be were the FDA is going with this?

My take was that the FDA feels that e-Liquids (and Nicotine Base) Nicotine Levels need to be Included in a Nicotine Level Reduction Strategy. And are Making the Case for Unadulterateable e-Cigarettes while they are at it.

 

[Str8vision]

They're saying e-liquids are going to be a problem unless they too are subject to the same standard. In other words unless they limit the maximum nicotine strength in e-liquids to be the same as what they intend to impose on cigarettes.

I believe they're right. If they reduce nic in cigarettes to non-addictive levels people will try to lace their cigarettes with nicotine, likely liquid nic but a flavored juice would work too.

 

[440BB]

Reframing the health argument and targeting the nicotine builds a nice umbrella to include all nic liquid.

News from the future:

The scourge of our society, rumpled nic addicts hunched over in the shadows sharing a forbidden open vape device, hungrily feeding their craving from a needle tipped bottle. Scoring some "6mg" was greeted with ravenous dripping while the uninitiated dipped their no-nic cigarettes in the puddle that remained after the binge. The city was safe for another night.

In other news, the medical community is baffled by the steady increase in cases of early onset dementia and Alzheimer's. Pharmaceutical companies are lobbying for faster approval of supplements they claim can help stem this growing health issue.

I wonder when the Nic Madness video goes viral.

 

[zoiDman]

They're saying e-liquids are going to be a problem unless they too are subject to the same standard. In other words unless they limit the maximum nicotine strength in e-liquids to be the same as what they intend to impose on cigarettes.

...

Bingo

 

[zoiDman]

...

I believe they're right. If they reduce nic in cigarettes to non-addictive levels people will try to lace their cigarettes with nicotine, likely liquid nic but a flavored juice would work too.

What is the One Thing that every, I mean Every, vaper tries to Avoid?

Dry Hits.

I wonder what a Marlboro Red jacked with e-Liquid would Taste Like?

LOL

 

[Str8vision]

The general public will -applaud- reduced nic in cigarettes as a step in the right direction. Then they'll -applaud- the FDA for for including e-liquids under the standard to insure smoker's can't cheat. Most of us knew that sooner or later they'd make a play to restrict liquid nic.

I wonder what a Marlboro Red jacked with e-Liquid would Taste Like?

LOL

To a 2 pad smoker who's been cut off from nicotine.... it'd taste GREAT!

 

[leftyandsparky]

The general public will -applaud- reduced nic in cigarettes as a step in the right direction. Then they'll -applaud- the FDA for for including e-liquids under the standard to insure smoker's can't cheat. Most of us knew that sooner or later they'd make a play to restrict liquid nic.



To a 2 pad smoker who's been cut off from nicotine.... it'd taste GREAT!

Get your “Nic-Daddy” shirt ready.....

 

[Alexander Mundy]

How else can one add nicotine to a virtual non nicotine cigarette than by adding nicotine? Currently 1 million mg of nicotine can be bought by anyone for less than the cost of 10 to 15 cartons of smokes depending on local sin tax. Restricting sales to the public would make it less difficult for them to enforce.

"To the extent that current smokers could evade product standards by manipulating legal products, there might develop an illicit market providing the mechanism to do so, which would face the same obstacles described above (cost of production, evading enforcement, etc.). Including restrictions on the sale of such products might result in the prevention of illicit trade hinging on enforcement."

Emphasis mine.

 

[Rossum]

https://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/NewsEvents/UCM601047.pdf

Additionally, it may be difficult for average consumers to construct certain classes of products on their own, such as smokeless products that require strict controls on fermentation and aging to maintain a consistent product, and liquids commonly used in electronic nicotine delivery systems (ENDS) that require complex chemical interactions.

So they think it's difficult to for consumers to make their own e-liquid...?

Only one percent of current U.K. smokers offered illicit tobacco reported considering the illegality of the purchase in their decision making.

This is important. "Illicit" tobacco products are currently purchased solely for economic reasons (i.e. because they're less expensive), not because the tobacco products that people want aren't available legally, yet 99% of people don't care whether a product they're offered is legal or not!

Now imagine how many more 9s would be added to that statistic if the products people wanted weren't available legally at any price.

stockpiling small supplies of products in advance of a standard seems likely in most cases

I feel kinda bad for the smokers who do not wish to quit. It's very easy for any vaper who desires it to stockpile a lifetime supply of nic base; the all-in costs are under $1000 including a dedicated freezer, and all indications are that nic, bottled in glass and stored in a freezer will keep indefinitely. But stockpiling a lifetime supply of one's preferred cigarettes isn't terribly practical; the acquisition cost would be several orders of magnitude higher, and then there's the question of storage.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

What is the One Thing that every, I mean Every, vaper tries to Avoid?

Dry Hits.

I wonder what a Marlboro Red jacked with e-Liquid would Taste Like?

LOL

Think add only nicotine, not VG PG etc. That's about as much as I should say "in passing".