Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[MacTechVpr]

Hate to say it. But I think the e-liquids that contain Nicotine derived from tobacco are Not Tobacco Products ship has Sailed.

I'd be Worried about being able to Continue to buy Flavored e-liquids myself. Because that is the 2 Lane Bridge we are heading for Right Now.

And 2020 is right around the Corner.

Only because of the isolated favorable rulings of unlawfully delegated authority by an irresponsible Congress. We don't need labeling law. We need a responsible government, not gov as parent, more than the supercilious invocation of gratifying stickers. Or shall we kid ourselves into absurdity along with our rulers as we have been and still are?

In a world without the authority of objective truth only those who hold political power have authority which is enforceable.

Here's my answer to ya Z…by and large we don't vape for the nic or tobacco. It's not either that we lose.

The FDA needs to find a useful public service.

Until then, we serve them. Not my choice.

Good luck.

 

[Rossum]

Nobody proposes anarchy.

I'm your huckleberry.

 

[englishmick]

I might think that people who don't agree with my analysis of our situation and how we should proceed are an ignorant rabble of losers, fools, and parliamentary roaders. But posting that thought wouldn't advance the cause of vaping much, people wouldn't like me, and it would make me feel like a jerk to do it. If I did think that, which I don't. Just saying.

I remember when I first got on ECF I read a long and excellent post by one of the movers and shakers on the forum. He was saying that what vaping needed was a quality media lobbying effort, without it we would probably lose the fight over public opinion since the opposition would certainly have that in place. It would need to be able to respond rapidly to every media attack with high quality targeted material. It would need people with professional skills in the area, with contacts in the media so they could send material to the right people and get it published. Etc. Guy said he could have set it up and managed it, it was his area of expertise, but he was already committed to other work. It would need serious financing too, which in practice could only have come from the vaping industry. None of that happened, at least in a coordinated way, for a lot of different reasons. Everything he said would happen happened. Wish I could find that post, but I've looked for it several times without success.

 

[ScottP]

I have said it twice, in different terms, just the last couple of pages of this thread. It does not matter if you do or do not agree with label regulation or why or why not. What matters is that the lies are ALL that the public (and MOST of the governments) is hearing. Until that changes, arguing or even agreeing here on EFC is just pissing in the wind.

@englishmick I really wish you could find that post. We need to get that person's expertise...STAT.

 

[ENAUD]

Because the vaping industry suffers from battered spouse syndrome. They call it tobacco, but that's okay, really they're just trying to save it from pharmaceutical regulations. Maybe if we limit the nicotine content they'll accept us. Maybe if we don't have packaging that can be considered as marketing to children they'll accept us. Maybe if the flavors don't have silly names they'll accept us. Maybe if the flavors are more "adult" they'll accept us. Maybe if we support age restrictions they'll accept us. Maybe if we agree to pay taxes they'll accept us.

We can't negotiate, we're not at the table.

We lost the battle when the deeming was enacted, a lot of vapers and businesses just haven't woken up to this fact yet...

 

[Jingles]

I would like to know exactly how many soccer moms have found that questionable packaging in their kids possession? Where are all the reports and pictures with kids holding these kiddy ejuices? We need to make the FDA prove that this is an actual problem. Just because something could be a problem, doesn't mean it is a problem.

 

[Lessifer]

We lost the battle when the deeming was enacted, a lot of vapers and businesses just haven't woken up to this fact yet...

We did lose a major battle. I don't think we've lost the war. I do wholeheartedly believe that we're not fighting on the right front.

Vaping can't be both the hero saving a billion lives AND the boogieman that parents need to protect their children from. Right now, the general public, and many vapers, have taken the tobacco label to heart.

 

[Lessifer]

I would like to know exactly how many soccer moms have found that questionable packaging in their kids possession? Where are all the reports and pictures with kids holding these kiddy ejuices? We need to make the FDA prove that this is an actual problem. Just because something could be a problem, doesn't mean it is a problem.

If you read the letters the FDA sent to the companies, and I admit it's not easy reading, they're not even accusing the majority of them of marketing directly to children. The point of that statement from the FDA is that kids may find those liquids and drink them, thinking they are candy/juice/etc. and then get sick or worse. I would also like to see the proof that anything like that has happened. It also makes the statement from AVA that much worse IMO.

 

[ENAUD]

We did lose a major battle. I don't think we've lost the war. I do wholeheartedly believe that we're not fighting on the right front.

Vaping can't be both the hero saving a billion lives AND the boogieman that parents need to protect their children from. Right now, the general public, and many vapers, have taken the tobacco label to heart.

The second that vaping became a tobacco product, was the very same second that it became a thing to be regulated into non existence, as that was the real intent of the family smoking prevention act, to end smoking. They can since that moment legislate it as they please, and all of our wailing and gnashing of teeth is nothing more than a trifle to the beurocrats in power. This is a prohibition, in the very same vein as the one initiated around a hundred years ago against a common plant. Seeing the extent at which vaping has been vilified with every tool available by the powers that be, it's just the same old game with a different villain. How can a few concerned citizens fight a deeply embedded vastly funded amalgam of "do gooders " on an agenda when the general population doesn't give a crap one way or the other because it doesn't concern them directly. People won't even stand up against vastly more onerous misdoings by the military industrial complex.

 

[Opinionated]

The second that vaping became a tobacco product, was the very same second that it became a thing to be regulated into non existence, as that was the real intent of the family smoking prevention act, to end smoking. They can since that moment legislate it as they please, and all of our wailing and gnashing of teeth is nothing more than a trifle to the beurocrats in power. This is a prohibition, in the very same vein as the one initiated around a hundred years ago against a common plant. Seeing the extent at which vaping has been vilified with every tool available by the powers that be, it's just the same old game with a different villain. How can a few concerned citizens fight a deeply embedded vastly funded amalgam of "do gooders " on an agenda when the general population doesn't give a crap one way or the other because it doesn't concern them directly. People won't even stand up against vastly more onerous misdoings by the military industrial complex.

One citizen can do very little. It would take all of us together to have any effect.

A defeatist attitude admits defeat before it happens and then doesn't try for anything other than defeat.

That's the vaping community.

That's the organizations who purport to speak for the industry and the community then turn around and claim some of the industry engages in predatory marketing.

Why did they do this? Because their handlers the anti vapers and the U.S. government told them to believe that and to propagate that so they did, because they were defeated and admitted defeat instead of fighting for the truth.

I'm so sad that no one can be bothered to stand up for vaping. This pervasive attitude of either complete defeat or just cant be bothered with any of it is really bothering me lately.

I got out of vaping exactly what I wanted and what I truly never imagined possible. I just hate to see it become far less effective for others than it was for me, because no one cared enough.

But I can't make anyone care. I guess I just shouldn't care. It's not for me anymore... I got what I wanted out of it. I don't even know why I do care, to be honest, other than it meant so much to me.

But if the majority in the vaping community is willing to repeat what the anti vapers tell them to say.. then there isn't anything the very few can do at all for the truth. Because it would take us all together.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

This is a prohibition, in the very same vein as the one initiated around a hundred years ago against a common plant.

The similarities of methodology in villianizing by the ANTZ for tobacco then subsequently for nicotine started way before the Deeming and are shockingly similar to 80 years ago. They have been using techniques straight out of Harry Anslinger's play book and for good reason, they work.

 

[untar]

For anyone wanting to read what's in the warning letters
2018 Warning Letters

 

[MacTechVpr]

We lost the battle when the deeming was enacted, a lot of vapers and businesses just haven't woken up to this fact yet...

IMO the vape store was our town hall. Each enterprise owner a team leader in comm org. I think many of us saw the inherent value of this premise. But commercially we became a box house and what we do a commodity. A shame. What we lose is not tobacco or nicotine.

Vaping is joy and freedom to us! Something we want to pass along to all who need and want it.

Yes, it would be great if we had a savior in some media wizard. But what we needed to do was widely and prominently promote what we are doing and why to all around us. Such that they all become allies and advocates for our profoundly human cause. This will not end until our partners, children, co-workers, employers, doctors, teachers, preachers sons and daughters right to the garbage man and dog catcher, indeed everyone we touch, understands just how miserable this unjust process is making our efforts to be healthy and whole. If the impact on us is never personalized, they will never see it.

If we're going to be saved at this point it's going to be by a miracle. A miracle of human understanding. It will not be accomplished in a cave or a bunker.

Good luck.

 

[mikepetro]

Alas, why I agree totally, in "this thread" we are preaching to the choir.

 

[Bronze]

Alas, why I agree totally, in "this thread" we are preaching to the choir.

And fighting among ourselves while doing it.

 

[mikepetro]

Another issue is:

"Many universities will not accept tobacco money for research," he said. "Some granting organizations, such as the American Cancer Society, will not accept applications for funding from researchers who have accepted tobacco money."

And vape money is now considered "tobacco money".

 

[CMD-Ky]

We have accepted the regulatory state since 1942 (Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942). We have all agreed to one degree or another that this or that regulation is a “good idea” or a regulation has no direct impact on our lives. We have passively sat back, accepted governmental control and have done nothing. Now the regulatory state comes for something that is meaningful in our lives, with a regulation that does directly impact our lives and furthers a goal that someone else believes is a “good idea”.

We want to keep our vape; I want a toilet that actually flushes, a light bulb that doesn’t require a hazmat team to clean up when broken and a gasoline that will not ruin small engines. The damage done to us due to a lack of vigilance and a passivity toward all regulatory bodies will not be undone.

Essentially, our ox has now been gored and we awaken to what has been going on for seventy-six years. How many actually recognize the nature and extent of the regulatory problem? I will bet that, on this entire forum, I would only need one hand to count that number.

This is not a problem of labeling or ANTZ, this is a problem involving a governing philosophy that transcends vaping and touches every aspect of our lives. When was the last time, if ever, have you considered the following question?

What is the proper size and scope of the federal government? The current answer is bigger is better and the scope is essentially unlimited.

 

[mikepetro]

We have accepted the regulatory state since 1942 (Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942). We have all agreed to one degree or another that this or that regulation is a “good idea” or a regulation has no direct impact on our lives. We have passively sat back, accepted governmental control and have done nothing. Now the regulatory state comes for something that is meaningful in our lives, with a regulation that does directly impact our lives and furthers a goal that someone else believes is a “good idea”.

We want to keep our vape; I want a toilet that actually flushes, a light bulb that doesn’t require a hazmat team to clean up when broken and a gasoline that will not ruin small engines. The damage done to us due to a lack of vigilance and a passivity toward all regulatory bodies will not be undone.

Essentially, our ox has now been gored and we awaken to what has been going on for seventy-six years. How many actually recognize the nature and extent of the regulatory problem? I will bet that, on this entire forum, I would only need one hand to count that number.

This is not a problem of labeling or ANTZ, this is a problem involving a governing philosophy that transcends vaping and touches every aspect of our lives. When was the last time, if ever, have you considered the following question?

What is the proper size and scope of the federal government? The current answer is bigger is better and the scope is essentially unlimited.

Hence, why I have always loved @Rossum 's signature!

“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”
-- Heinlein

 

[stols001]

I'm not sure sharing my opinion and we all have one, will be helpful. The one thing I do agree upon was (whomever, these were a lot of posts to catch up on) vapers will only (potentially) achieve success by acting like the NRA. The NRA may disagree on certain things, but they fight EVERY gun fight and stay relentlessly on message. This is how they succeed so well. Unfortunately the amount of arguing and not about something as simple as packaging? We're nowhere near even creating a VapeRA, let alone deciding what the message should be.

There is only strength in numbers, and via the idea that we fight the good fight, as hard as possible and OPPOSE every last change that is being sent our way, regardless of whether we think it's a big deal or not.

We should be modeling ourselves after the NRA. Relentlessly on message, every damn time. I actually approve of the NRA (and it's stance on guns) but even if I didn't, I am impressed by what they have been able to achieve. And yes, it takes effort (and the numbers who are apathetic to do it.) I hope one day it happens. I will FIGHT the flavor labels until I can't anymore, because that is how to stay relentlessly on message.. Do I, personally care about labeling? Not a whit. Do I care that it's part of the FDA "exit" strategy for vaping? Yes, yes I do very very much.

Anna

 

[mikepetro]

Hence, why I have always loved @Rossum 's signature!

“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.”
-- Heinlein

Another by Heinlein

Reason is poor propaganda when opposed by the yammering, unceasing lies of shrewd and evil and self-serving men.