Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Pamawoman]

It takes time to build a stash. No one can afford to actually purchase everything they need in one shot. Plus, you can still vape the good stuff while trying to make something that is reasonably vapeable.

Yep. That's the plan. Lots of experimenting, learning and stashing.

 

[Kenna]

The first article explains very thoroughly WHY the FDA is 'Deeming' these specific regulations and why any 'fight' the vaping community is 'fighting and will continue to fight' may be futile. Vapers are already targeted to be the group that will make up revenue that has been lost. The revenue that is being lost goes MUCH deeper than just taxes--and most states (California in particular) has already spent their MSA yearly allotted funds that were to be paid to the State for the next 24 years--billions of dollars--all of it. They were able to spend it before they received it because of the Trusts and the Bond Companies that were set up by the politicians so that they could get their piece of the BT pie. Without the volume of sales and the Federal, State and local taxes that were imposed to produce the revenue--the states will not be able to continue to get the AMOUNT they need to pay off the bonds and pay back the trust. That is just a small part of the scheme that has been going on for years. I encourage you to take time to read every word on all 51 pages. It is always about the money--but this goes way beyond what the average person thinks of "as just another imposed tax" that most of us were willing to pay, when we were addicted to cigarettes. It is interesting that the states that spent all of the money 21-24 years early--are the states that have worked the hardest to demonize the vaping industry, pushed the hardest and lied the most.

Thank you Ocelot for posting this link.

The drift from Capitalism and Freedom started long ago and has ramped up speed the last 8 years, the government has been able to begin to control EVERY single thing that you might choose to do, say, or be, while at the same time determining how they can destroy any history, values, or traditions that we have enjoyed in this country. Cameras have been installed so that they can monitor activity and bring to task those that choose not to be controlled. Beyond that they have invaded the privacy of our homes with 'smart Barbies' (for the children), Smart TV's, Smart phones and computers that can watch you and record conversations you have in the perceived privacy of your home, then send the data to a clearing house where all conversations that have the 'key' or 'flagged' words in a conversation you may have had with a friend, a spouse, a child or a parent, in the privacy of your own home--gives them the right to enter your home and seize all of your devices and any of your personal belongings and any bank account that they may want. I heard not long ago on a local news station that in the next couple of years even our toasters will be 'smart'--they will record what is discussed around the toaster.This made me a little more appreciative of my loud worn out dishwasher. I want to nurse this 'dumb' appliance along for as long as I can. A Smart dishwasher could be very dangerous to the entire family. Then there are the 'smart' additions to our vehicles...

For the last 8 years the government has slowly and methodically taken many of our rights and freedoms away and many people are not even aware of what they have lost. Most of this was made easier when Obamacare passed and was slowly implemented (as our lawmakers were finally learning what was in the bill that they passed never thinking it might be important to read it first) they were now hoping that the big awful things that robbed us of our rights-- and took a bigger chunk of our money...--that these things would go unnoticed as people went about the day to day activities and dealt with the issues that had an impact on their lives, the issues of the moment. After the initial outrage and uproar over the whole mess was over people went back to focusing on their own busy lives and issues--the law began to be revealed step by step with very little notice or comment about the things that were happening because of it, and that was just fine for our lawmakers.

This coming year when a family decides to SELL their house in order to move to another state for another job, or simply they would like to have a different house--they will be shocked when they are told that they owe SALES TAX to the federal government because they sold their home. Yes the SELLERS will owe the tax, not the buyers. I will rant no further here, as it would be too long for anyone to read. A person that really wants to know what is in store for them as this law is fully implemented may want to read it -- to be prepared for the horrors.

But I will mention, that just today our local news informed us that: Eating a taco on May 5th is offensive --so it should not be done. Evidently it offends others if you eat a taco on May 5th. However you can eat them any other time, that is ok, as long as it is not done on May 5th. And at a State University here in our great State, a sorority decided to have an event called Taco Tuesday, to get together and eat and have some social time- and fun, that event violated a new rule at the University, a rule that virtually no one really knew existed, because those that create these new rules do not have to publicize that a new rule has been made. That sorority has been banned from their campus and has to pay a stiff fine for the offense, properly dealt with and punished, because fun is no longer allowed.

This week here in our state, after school two six year old boys exited the school bus and then got in to a fight. They eventually resolved it without any serious injury and went on home. The officials looked at the video (of course there were cameras) of this 'event' and then went to the homes of the other children that were present but not involved, and arrested the older children that happened to be in the same place because they too exited the school bus--understand that these children did not even know either one of these boys that were fighting and were not involved in any way-- the children that were arrested ranged in age 8 to 12 years old, they were handcuffed, put in the back of a police car, and as their stunned parents watched were taken to the local police station, and charged with NOT DOING ANYTHING to STOP THE FIGHT, evidently that is a new offense for 8 to 12 year old children who then need to hire attorneys, and go through the court system to be punished for standing at a place where something bad takes place and not taking any action to stop what is happening.

What does all this have to do with the FDA'S Deemings--EVERYTHING--we now live in a country where most everything has changed in regards to personal choices, and liberty, very little of those two things exist anymore. Most everything is dealt with in a punitive manner. It is all about punishment, because that is how power is gained, if others are punished, and put in their place, then the powerful have more power and control, and the power and control leads to the $$$$$. And eventually it ALL really comes down to the $$$$$$$$$$$$.

The FDA has decided that Vapers must be punished, financially for sure, emotionally is a must! The more miserable it can be, the better. They could care less, about health for any individual, the less healthy our society can be, the fewer people they eventually have to deal with-- it all works out for the purpose intended, and there are fewer elderly people to deal with down the road. If they can force people to go back to tobacco and smoke cigarettes regularly, many will die at a younger age than if they did not smoke, and the necessary revenue needed, to continue the flow of billions -- is raised and spent. It's WIN WIN in their opinion--the revenue is restored and many people are eliminated.

I have a vision of the not too far off future... My children and grandchildren go to the grocery store to buy the food they need for the week, as they approach the check out line there is a scale to weigh them, a blood pressure cuff , and a machine to test their blood, before they check out--if anyone in the family is overweight, foods that have been determined to be the 'cause' will be removed and they will be forbidden to purchase those, if their blood pressure is up--they are not allowed to buy any thing that has sodium or salt content, and of course the blood test can eliminate the processed food, anything with sugar, including fresh fruits or juices, most meat would be forbidden because the fat can affect the sugar count, bacon of course is a big no no. They certainly won't be allowed any tomatoes or other vegetables that might contain nicotine. I wonder what they will be able to eat as they drink their bottled water??????

For years I have felt that there is something very wrong for a society that is subjected to BP's ads about drugs we don't necessarily need, many for conditions that make no sense or have been 'made up' to fit the drug. The drugs that are advertised- have side effects that certainly leave people in a worse state than they were before they started taking a drug that is advertised. What the drug is supposed to take care of, creates horrors with the side effects it produces. And now it isn't enough to just take 1 pill for a thing--now often times there is a pill to make the original pill work better, and it has it's own set of side effects that contain the words like "can cause cancer' or 'can often be fatal'. These drugs all approved by the FDA!

Those commercials are followed by the commercials that feature attorney's getting settlements in the six figure range for people that took last year's 'drug of the day' for a condition that no one had ever heard of and were harmed by those drugs. All drugs that...wait for it... were approved by the FDA. All of these ads feature nostalgic music and smiling happy people--the drug ads and the attorney ads.

The irony is that one cannot just walk in to a pharmacy and purchase any of these drugs -that have been approved by the FDA- that are incessantly being advertised. A doctor visit ($$$$) must first take place and a prescription for the deadly doses must be written--then off to the pharmacy that no longer fills the prescription on the spot while a person waits--but now has created a long miserable process, that can take up to 24 hours, with many checks along the way that a person is really the person who the prescription was written for. And it is mandatory that you are 'counseled' before you can have the drug--there is a special 'window' at the pharmacy for this to take place and it is mandatory that you go to that window to be counseled before you can have your antibiotic or whatever has been prescribed. I guess that is preparation for the defense for the pending lawsuits that take place the next year... for people who are convinced by the advertising attorneys to sue BP because they took the drugs that had been approved by the FDA, and when taken, the drug harmed or killed them, if they died the family of the victim deserve to be paid millions of $.

The last few years, many changes have quietly taken place... quietly without a lot of media coverage, because they really don't want people to be too aware of what they are losing...

The first time I took serious 'action' to stockpile a product that the government decided they needed to regulate, and decide what was best for me to use was light bulbs! When it was determined that incandescent light bulbs needed to be eliminated and replaced with light bulbs that were good for me and 'the environment', but needed a hasmat team to clean up if one broke, and also a bulb when sold - lined pockets of those that created and supported the new law with $$$, I decided NO--those are NOT for me and I began to prepare for the fluorescent future. Most all my friends and family totally made fun of me and laughed about all the boxes of light bulbs that arrived on a regular basis. Now they all live in fluorescent light land with dangerous light bulbs in the house with their 'children', and continually ask to borrow or buy light bulbs from me because they can't find what they need in the stores, because the stores are forbidden to sell them. I have enough light bulbs to last the rest of my life. All sizes, all watts, all kinds, flood lights for outdoor, recessed can lights, regular bulbs in all watts, appliance replacement bulbs, nite lights, string lights etc. When it was announced that after a two year period that purchasing incandescent bulbs would be 'against the law', I created a strategy and spread out the purchases over a 11 month time frame. I am set with light bulbs for life, unless they storm my personal property to seize the forbidden items.

After that experience, when I started vaping in 2013, and shortly after that-- the FDA began to show us what we were in for. I began to prepare for the future...

Long post--I know--it just took that many words!

So much truth!

 

[englishmick]

I like the way you're thinking. Especially with the highlighted part.

I don't see how science, as we know it, doesn't take a big hit over what we human (vapers) are currently experiencing. IMO, science of the non-FDA variety has to come through for us or science as I understand it, may be a myth. In reality, it already has come through for us. But I mean in a monumental way. The legal, political and economic (black market) fight are all fine and good, but the science aspect of this could change things really fast if science were being vocal and honest. Sure that's vaper spin, but we clearly live in a world where pseudo-scientific propaganda coupled with unplausible denial is allowed to be operating under the umbrella of 'science.'

And if I were practicing scientist, I'd be offended. As human being who understands science, I'm a little more than offended. I'm thinking science takes a huge hit over this if it allows the likes of FDA and CDC to be its only voice.

I read a sarcastic comment in an English publication a while back describing America today as the first post-rational society.

That aside, vaping has money working against it. In this country money is the only thing that has more clout than party theology or religion. Although in the case of vaping most of the rest of the world isn't that far behind. Some third world governments have outright made vaping illegal, and not even bothered developing a cover story. America still had to take the time to swing public opinion before selling the nicotine concession to Pharma and Tobacco.

I don't know about the rest of the folks here, but for the last 3 days I've been swinging wildly between abject despair and irrational optimism over this stuff. Maybe I should turn off the computer and take a break.

 

[Robino1]

I've poured through 94 pages of this thread as well as the FDA site and I can't seem to get any definitive answer regarding local vape shops that make their own juice. According to the FDA site in 90 days they will be considered "tobacco product manufacturers" and would need to submit applications of various types in order to continue operations.

I called my local shop and they didn't seem at all concerned. Said they were already compliant with the 18+ restrictions.

So is this accurate? Will mom and pop vape shops have to cease mixing their own juices in 90 days?

They really need to get up to speed on what is coming. As far as the bolded portion, for now they are. After the 90 days..... I don't know.

As to the rest.... I honestly can't say. I don't know for sure. I am reading the same things that everyone else is reading. Interpreting it is not my best subject.

 

[mikepetro]

Perhaps there will be a three month period of extremely accelerated development and releases of all kinds of new gizmos!

Yeah, I suspect there will be, but that is also pretty damn dangerous if you think about it. A lot of products that are NOT very thoroughly tested will be hitting the market very soon. QC and testing is already lacking in many cases, it will really get shortcut now.

 

[VictorC]

" If the tobacco product manufacturer submits a self-certification statement to FDA that the newly-regulated tobacco product does not contain nicotine (and that the manufacturer has data to support this assertion), then an alternate statement must be used on product packages and advertisements:

“This product is made from tobacco.”

???? Edit: found the answer.

 

[rothenbj]

but congress and the president has already given the FDA authority to regulate tobacco products.
And the lawsuit "won" by vaping the first time against the FDA did define vaping stuff as tobacco products. So we won that battle but gave ammo for losing the war.

Maybe, however the legal beagle's from the manufacturers may have some major input before this is through. To me, the FDA used the pharma view of drug and drug delivery device and applied it to e cigs and, I suppose cigars and pipe tobacco. When you define no nic e liquid a tobacco product because it's delivered by a device they declared to be a tobacco product because it can be used to vape nicquid, there is dome shaky ground.

There was some shaky ground years ago when drug paraphernalia of all sorts was being confiscated and people arrested. Then, it all came back for use with tobacco and the devices were back on the market. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

[mikepetro]

Yes, some vendors sell them. WizardLabs does. I've never used them. Supposedly, they're not highly accurate, but enough to be fairly useful.

To get more accurate results with any of the simple kits like the Wiz Labs kit:

Dilute your sample 50% with distilled water

This will cause you to have to add more acid (double) to turn the solution from blue to clear.

Now do the math that comes with the kit but divide your test result by 2.

It effectively doubles the accuracy of the test.

The limiting factor is the size of the drops of acid, and the measuring (ie meniscus etc) of small amounts of liquid. By diluting your sample you minimize these measurement errors.

 

[Bronze]

There are two iron clad ways to get rid of these regulations. One, line the pockets of the regulators and law makers to remove the regulations. After all, this was the tactic used to get them written in the first place. Two, get congress to pass a vape tax. No way they'll kill vaping if the government can make money off of it.

Sad to say, if you want anything done in Washington you have to be the highest bidder.

 

[BuGlen]

If you are referring to "A Billion Lives" then I am dismayed that no one can see it. It won't get the message out just being seen at a few world premier film festivals. He has stated that if Hollywood picks it up it will get out there. This is obviously (to me) saying they want the revenue from Hollywood. I can understand that if he has put considerable money into making it, however I nievly expected it to be released when done since that wasn't mentioned when I first started following it. I assumed he had charitable donor revenue. With today's social media it could be everywhere already.

The documentary project "A Billion Li(v)es" was not publicly funded, and the production company does not have the capital for self promotion and distribution. In order to reach the general public, they need to get the film promoted where the general public can and will hear about it and view its content. Film festivals are the first step in this process to get the promoters interested in the project. Once the promoters are interested, they work with the production company to line up distribution and get the movie theater companies interested in showing the film.

If this production company were to give up on this process and just release the film (at a financial loss to themselves), it might be a great feel-good moment for them, but it would not reach general audiences around the world. The only people viewing this documentary (on streaming services) would be people who already have an interest in the topic, so they would essentially be "preaching to the choir". If this documentary does not receive at least minimal distribution through normal channels, it will have been a complete waste of time and money, and accomplish absolutely nothing.

 

[ZeroedIn]

Sorry, Kristin Noll-Marsh whoever you are... I am not going to stand by idly while my PERSONAL LIBERTIES are actively being trampled upon. DON'T TREAD ON ME!

 

[salemgold]

Sorry, Kristin Noll-Marsh whoever you are... I am not going to stand by idly while my PERSONAL LIBERTIES are actively being trampled upon. DON'T TREAD ON ME!

She is with CASAA and made that announcement on their FB page.

Her point is that it is too late for those petitions. It has already had the blessings of the Whitehouse.

If you truly don't "want to stand by idly" than join CASAA!

 

[snork]

Sorry, Kristin Noll-Marsh whoever you are... I am not going to stand by idly while my PERSONAL LIBERTIES are actively being trampled upon. DON'T TREAD ON ME!

"Kristin Noll-Marsh is a Tobacco Harm Reduction activist and advocacy leader in Wisconsin.
She is a founding director of CASAA; elected by popular vote to the first board of directors
in 2009 and has served as vice president since 2011. Her ongoing efforts on behalf of CASAA
include member outreach; public service announcements; designing t-shirts, graphics and other
promotional materials; setting up and administrating CASAA's website, web store, email
system, phone app and social media outlets, such as Facebook and Twitter; and creating RSS
feeds and newsletters. She also writes and edits the many of the posts for the official CASAA
news blog and Calls to Action, and assists with writing and sending official press releases."

 

[SeniorBoy]

Yeah, I suspect there will be, but that is also pretty damn dangerous if you think about it. A lot of products that are NOT very thoroughly tested will be hitting the market very soon. QC and testing is already lacking in many cases, it will really get shortcut now.

Excellent point Mike. And with your extensive Mod Building experience, you would know better than most. At the risk of repeating here is the timeline.

- The clock starts ticking the day the Final Rule is published in the Federal Register which has not yet occurred but per the FDA will occur on 5/10/16. Nothing will change from the document we are reading today.

- Vendors/Manufact etc have 90 days from the Publication date of 5/10/16 for introduction of new products which is the issue you raised along with others.

- The clock starts clicking on the Congressional Review Act and Congress has 60 days from the Publication date to reject/modify the Final Rule. NO extensions. IMHO, doubtful they will accomplish anything but I could be wrong. If they do nothing or wonder around in the bushes and can't accomplish anything then the Final Rule becomes the law of the land 90 days from the Publication Date in the Federal Register.

Edit for senior moment

 

[kross8]

Oh, that's next anyway. I guarantee it. Sin tax. But booze and cigarettes, both known killers, march on.

cigs already have a sin tax,, i believe its $1+ per pack,,soda/junk food/ and beer dont. in fact some group did the math and if the govt were to go after soda and junk food with a sin tax,, then everyone in America would have full coverage health insurance.............coke and pepsi have very deep pockets and can buy every politician.

 

[Capt.shay]

The documentary project "A Billion Li(v)es" was not publicly funded, and the production company does not have the capital for self promotion and distribution. In order to reach the general public, they need to get the film promoted where the general public can and will hear about it and view its content. Film festivals are the first step in this process to get the promoters interested in the project. Once the promoters are interested, they work with the production company to line up distribution and get the movie theater companies interested in showing the film.

If this production company were to give up on this process and just release the film (at a financial loss to themselves), it might be a great feel-good moment for them, but it would not reach general audiences around the world. The only people viewing this documentary (on streaming services) would be people who already have an interest in the topic, so they would essentially be "preaching to the choir". If this documentary does not receive at least minimal distribution through normal channels, it will have been a complete waste of time and money, and accomplish absolutely nothing.

At this point, it is unlikely it will matter what so ever who sees it. We needed this BEFORE the deeming. I just don't see it mattering now. If it doesn't mater I don't see many people ever seeing it. Seeking traditional routs has timed out for the project. Even a YouTube can go viral and millions see it, and that is for a cat that licks itself. I understand it is a privately funded project but what will it matter after these deemings come in to effect? Once they are in we will never get them out. America hates to rescind laws and we as vapers do not have the numbers to push something like that through.

(rant off) Sigh

 

[ZeroedIn]

After August 8 the internet is a tobacco product.

Today, you win the Internet! LOL

 

[BuGlen]

Sorry, Kristin Noll-Marsh whoever you are... I am not going to stand by idly while my PERSONAL LIBERTIES are actively being trampled upon. DON'T TREAD ON ME!

Kristin Noll-Marsh is vice president of CASAA (Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Assoc.), and has done more for vaping (and other smokeless tobacco) in recent years than almost anyone by contacting members and organizing grass-roots political actions. You should probably understand who you're addressing before you decide to throw around the Gadsden war cry. We're all on edge right now, but there are very good people in (CASAA, SFATA, etc.) who are reviewing the options, and they will provide some sound guidance once the plan(s) have been formulated.

For more information about the people and history of this organization, as well as some very good information about vaping, please visit CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association. Better yet, become a member (it doesn't cost anything) to receive emails about actions to be taken by us, and better still, donate some dollars or time to the cause.

 

[salemgold]

This seems idiotic. At the very least, a single judge granting an injunction against implementation until the entire case plays out would at the least buy us more time.

I agree. Plus, the SFATA teleconference took place at 9am Friday. Even if they did have a team of legal experts go over the documents, there is no way that they were able to determine that a lawsuit could not be won in that amount of time.

CASAA stated on their site that it will take a team several days to go through all of it and decipher all 499 pages.

 

[Goodrat]