Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

BuGlen

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At this point, it is unlikely it will matter what so ever who sees it. We needed this BEFORE the deeming. I just don't see it mattering now. If it doesn't mater I don't see many people ever seeing it. Seeking traditional routs has timed out for the project. Even a YouTube can go viral and millions see it, and that is for a cat that licks itself. I understand it is a privately funded project but what will it matter after these deemings come in to effect? Once they are in we will never get them out. America hates to rescind laws and we as vapers do not have the numbers to push something like that through.

(rant off) Sigh

Agree about the timing, and it would have been nice if this project started a year or so earlier. However, considering when the project was announce, they were able to gather the film content and finish post-production on a very short schedule compared to many projects of this nature. We can all sit around and complain about what should've happened, but that's not going to help our current situation. While this film might not change our immediate circumstances, it does shed light on the cause, and it might help curb some of the more harsh regulations as they're being considered for implementation.

Worst case scenario is that it will open a few eyes and a few minds to this and similar corruption in our current government.
 

Ed Sause

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I am very new to this hobby and understand the concerns for USA residents. :(

Please excuse me for not understanding. But if I live in Australia and simply import my nic liquid from China will this affect Australian residents?

I only started vaping a week ago and feel terrible for us all.

It wont effect any other country. But I may want your address.
 

classwife

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Sorry, Kristin Noll-Marsh whoever you are... I am not going to stand by idly while my PERSONAL LIBERTIES are actively being trampled upon. DON'T TREAD ON ME!


One should listen to the Vice President of CASAA
CASAA Leadership

But you are free to do as you wish :)
 

Bronze

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Her point is that it is too late for those petitions. It has already had the blessings of the Whitehouse.
Which is the point I've tried making. If the White House can bless these regulations it can also unbless them. Not the current administration...obviously. But the next administration. Now really people, which of the two remaining candidates are more likely to continue blessing them? This should not be a difficult question to answer.

See, I made a point and didn't mention any names. :)
 

classwife

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I see classwife and maybe others sometime chime in with the numbers of members and guests looking at the thread, but all I can see is the members number and the guests number is always "0". Do others see the guest number, or is that just for staff?


I think with the old system members could "see" Guests...not sure.
But...we do see a different member count since we can also see those that use the Forum in "invisible mode"

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 39, Guests: 34)

Edit...oopsie...we all see the same member count...but only staff sees all the names of the members listed at the bottom
 

Bronze

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I can't argue with Ms. Noll-Marsh but I can say that it definitely does not hurt to write your representatives. Go to this thread H.R.2058 - FDA Deeming Authority Clarification Act of 2015 and learn how. It's VERY easy!
 

BuGlen

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Which is the point I've tried making. If the White House can bless these regulations it can also unbless them. Not the current administration...obviously. But the next administration. Now really people, which of the two remaining candidates are more likely to continue blessing them? This should not be a difficult question to answer.

See, I made a point and didn't mention any names. :)

Hi Bronze! :D I understand your point, and I could get behind you for this election cycle if it were not for the particular candidate in question. I'm not completely against a single issue voting agenda for voters, especially when it's as important as this one. However, that candidate can be extremely disastrous (and I don't believe I'm exaggerating) on so many other issues, not the least of which would be foreign relations with our allies. If the party in question (who usually support small business, ideologically anyway) had a viable candidate, I would be more inclined to support your premise.

Now, with that said, I could support a grass-roots campaign to help ensure that a particular party not only doesn't get majority back in the senate (and house) this election cycle, but they lose more seats in both. It would depend on the history of each candidate, of course, but I think it's doable. That is, unless the candidate at the top of the ticket truly does affect the down-ticket elections this year.
 

Sir Kadly

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    which of the two remaining candidates
    There are more than two remaining candidates, and frankly our interests would best be served by making a point of reminding everyone we know of that fact. I don't expect any help whatsoever from the two candidates that most people think of.
    I attempted to make my point without naming any names but if not I can attempt to clarify.:)
     

    Bronze

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    Hi Bronze! :D I understand your point, and I could get behind you for this election cycle if it were not for the particular candidate in question. I'm not completely against a single issue voting agenda for voters, especially when it's as important as this one. However, that candidate can be extremely disastrous (and I don't believe I'm exaggerating) on so many other issues, not the least of which would be foreign relations with our allies. If the party in question (who usually support small business, ideologically anyway) had a viable candidate, I would be more inclined to support your premise.

    Now, with that said, I could support a grass-roots campaign to help ensure that a particular party not only doesn't get majority back in the senate (and house) this election cycle, but they lose more seats in both. It would depend on the history of each candidate, of course, but I think it's doable. That is, unless the candidate at the top of the ticket truly does affect the down-ticket elections this year.
    Hey BuGlen! Nice to see you. The congress is clearly important...no two ways about it. However, it is the White House who controls the FDA where these vaping regulations were born. I'm not telling anyone how to vote but they do need to know who controls the DHHS/FDA (and the vape regulations) so they can factor it in their voting decision. I consider myself fairly astute in civics but also recognize many are not. Any info I can add that can educate people is worthy of doing.
     

    Bronze

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    There are more than two remaining candidates, and frankly our interests would best be served by making a point of reminding everyone we know of that fact. I don't expect any help whatsoever from the two candidates that most people think of.
    I attempted to make my point without naming any names but if not I can attempt to clarify.:)
    So that I do not offend you or anyone else, I speak of the two candidates that are most commonly thought of as the last two candidates remaining in the presidential race. This is irrespective of how me or anyone else feels about these two candidates. Hope this splits the hair satisfactorily. :)
     

    mikepetro

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    It only takes a few minutes! Write some variation of this to every elected official that represents you!


    I am a 57 year old middle class VOTER.

    I was addicted to tobacco most of my life. I firmly believe that switching to ecigs has extended my life by years. Not only does scientific research show that it is 95% less harmful, but my own body tells me that it is less harmful.

    Now the FDA is making it easier to buy tobacco than to obtain a satisfying ecig.

    I urge you to support the
    H.R.2058 - FDA Deeming Authority Clarification Act of 2015

    Products that existed before 2/14/2007 simply did not work, where current generation products DO work. As a result I have been tobacco free for 3.5 years. Please allow me the legal means to stay off of tobacco!

    Sincerely,
    Mike Petro
     

    BuGlen

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    Hey BuGlen! Nice to see you. The congress is clearly important...no two ways about it. However, it is the White House who controls the FDA where these vaping regulations were born. I'm not telling anyone how to vote but they do need to know who controls the DHHS/FDA (and the vape regulations) so they can factor it in their voting decision. I consider myself fairly astute in civics but also recognize many are not. Any info I can add that can educate people is worthy of doing.

    Point taken, and clearly made I might add. However, keeping opposing majorities in the senate and house will affect a great deal of other events down the road. For example, any federal judge appointees by the sitting president need to be affirmed by the senate, which will likely mean that they will have to be either neutral or leaning toward the opposing party positions. If the opposing party controls and affirmations, we might have a better chance at winning any legal battles as they traverse up through the court systems. There are other examples, but I think this one demonstrates the most direct affect of down-ticket opposition that could work in our favor.
     

    Kurt

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    Thanks Kurt!

    I've seen where you wrote once that storing in plastic can result in plastic leaching. With LPDE bottled 75/25 PG/VG nic in the freezer, will that be a problem? I don't mind much some loss of potency, but I fear consuming much plastic.

    As I said, I don't want to clog this thread up with DIY details. LDPE will not dissolve, but it will allow significant O2 transport through it. So in terms of long term storage of nic, if you don't want oxidation, then avoid LDPE.
     

    BuGlen

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    As I said, I don't want to clog this thread up with DIY details. LDPE will not dissolve, but it will allow significant O2 transport through it. So in terms of long term storage of nic, if you don't want oxidation, then avoid LDPE.

    Kurt - You provide invaluable information that's desperately needed right now, especially by people like me who don't have the option to switch to zero nic liquids. Thank you for all of your research and for your advice over the years!
     

    Steamix

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    "Greed has poisoned men’s souls,..."
    (Charlie Chaplin in 'The Great Dictator')

    Very nice piece, that Baptists & Bootleggers paper, it puts hard numbers on what was fairly obvious all along :

    Follow the $$$

    Vaping has slowed down many gravy trains. And it has the definite potential to derail these gravy trains altogether.
    Which - of course - doesn't sit too well with everyone feeding off that fat.

    That's why we need to be on our guard even more now: No matter how and how much of the FDA regs will come through in the end, the individual states and even municipalities will want to get their licks in too. Using the FDA stuff as precedent, they are bound to pipe up. Heck, they might even try to slip a fast one in your local capitol while all our eyes are turned towards Washington. Motivation is there, good number of states are hurtin badly already.
    PMTA plus taxes - thats whay they want BT to handle it completely. Well-trodden money paths. Buddy-buddy networks well established to share the spoils. Keeping an eye on all the mom'n pop outfits woul require a numbers of enforcement personeall that could rival any totalitarian state past or present. Cuts down on the margin... nawww, can't have that. So keep a close eye on your local gubmint too...

    Cuz it's a bit like the TPD in the EU : Some member states like the UK will only implement as much as they have to. Other members made noises already about adding all sorts of local twists to that. None of them favourable to vaping, of course.

    And the consequences will be as expected.

    Sorry to rattle you ivory tower, Mr. Zeller, but the 'black market' you are so fast to dismiss will take over.

    Their mindset isn't that much different : Follow the $$$ and nevermind the body count. $$$ and control.

    Only difference is that they do not try to hide their agenda behind hypocritical crap talk, they're as direct as the stage coach robbers in those old Western movies. Standard line : 'Your money or your life'

    And they're just as efficient as any big corporation. Logistcs, distribution , it's all in place. Humans, weapons, illicit substances, as long as the profit margin is right, they couldn't care less about your life. They care about the money, nothing else. And their profit margins - any CEO would get dreamy eyes.

    Doubt it ? Then how come you are loosing the 'war on drugs' on all fronts ? Even some sources in high places admit that it's an abject failure. If people want something, they WILL get it. There's enough 'shadow economists' in place to provide for every whim. Seen enough underaged kids with all sorts of stuff. Fortunately, the great majority are bright enough and stable enough to leave it be after having tried ( "didn't inhale" ).

    Where there is demand there will be supply. And I am sure the 'shadow economy' will gladly fill the void for a little extra change by adding vapes to their portfolio.

    And it's going to be different:

    Intimidating the living daylight out of the owners of some mom'n pop store with guns drawn is one thing. Easy.

    Now Mr Zeller, picture one of your minions, full of himself (and possible something else) cuz he gets to wear an FDA badge, partake in your powers, so to speak, about to close down a 'vape house' and looking down the business end of an assault rifle. With a bit of luck he can unload some of the other stuff he's full of into his drawers before he succumbs to acute lead poisoning....

    Cuz the 'shadow economy' doesn't file SEC-compliant quarterly reports.
    Cuz the 'shadow economy' doesn't bother with petitions and injunctions or any other noises nobody listens to.
    Cuz the 'shadow economy' knows that the only noises that garner undivided attention is the faint rustle of high-denomination bills. Or the typical rrrack-clack of a shell getting chambered in a pumpgun...

    Do we really want that ?
     

    Wow1420

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    She is with CASAA and made that announcement on their FB page.

    Her point is that it is too late for those petitions. It has already had the blessings of the Whitehouse.

    If you truly don't "want to stand by idly" than join CASAA!

    Too late for a whitehouse petition, I agree with.

    But, the change.org petition should go to congress, where the Cole bill/admendment are our next best hope for positive results.
     

    skoony

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    The FDA would say this is evidence of your having been exposed to nicotine in your teens, and the resulting brain damage.

    Nicotine causes permanent damage in young brains

    http://www.iamexpat.nl/read-and-discuss/lifestyle/news/nicotine-causes-permanent-brain-damage
    I am aware there are scientific studies poses risks to fetal development and brain development in adolescents.

    Thing begs the question why I am not aware of any reported case of fetal nicotine syndrome nor
    nicotine addled juvenile disorder.( defense attournies take note of the latter,it might win you a
    case or two);)
    serve dual-purpose as a vape and head shop.--------agree,, the head shop near me has more mods/atty's than the 3 b&m vape stores,,to the point i thought they must carry everything.....i was impressed.
    The advertised use is a non-factor. Actual use determines the need of regulatory action per FDA determination.
    #16 is the real killer, if accurate. Maybe they meant that until something's been denied, or some enforcement action's been taken, litigation is highly unlikely to suceed.
    This is my understanding also. Until your product is off the market and or your going bankrupt
    you have no damages ergo,no case.

    Is anything that the FDA has released Final and Statutory without the Presidents Signature? As I understand it... No, it Isn't.
    Can the President Sign the FDA's Rule Set before Congress (Both Houses) has Approved it... No He/She Can't.
    With out intervention outside of the FDA the President and congress need do nothing and the regulations stands as is. I am not sure of the time frame involved but,this is my understanding.
    Intervention is only required to change or rescind the regulation not, to allow it to stand as is.
    There could be some pre-functionary nod of approval which would be next to doing nothing.


    Hey, was doing some in depth late night reading. Digest this and tell me if you think this means what I think it might mean:

    (Comment 26) Many comments stated that a requirement to prepare PMTAs for all of the many parts and components that go into some of the newly deemed tobacco products would create an effective ban of these products.

    (Response) The definition of a tobacco product includes components and parts, and these products are subject to the automatic provisions of the FD&C Act, including premarket authorization requirements. However, at this time, FDA intends to limit enforcement of the premarket authorization provisions to finished tobacco products. In this context, a finished tobacco product refers to a tobacco product, including all components and parts, sealed in final packaging intended for consumer use (e.g., filters or filter tubes sold separately to consumers or as part of kits). For example, an e-liquid sealed in final packaging that is to be sold or distributed to a consumer for use in a finished tobacco product will be subject to enforcement if it is on the market without authorization. In contrast, an e-liquid that is sold or distributed for further
    manufacturing into a finished ENDS product is not itself a finished tobacco product. At this time, FDA does not intend to enforce the premarket authorization requirements against such eliquids or other components and parts of newly deemed products that are sold or distributed solely for further manufacturing without a marketing order.
    I have read this and seen it posted many times. My best guess is if your making juice in bulk
    and selling it wholesale in 55 gallon generically labeled drums to branders you're not under
    any regulatory burden. Those that buy it and prepare it for individual sale would be saddled
    with the regulatory burden and cost. Sounds good doesn't it but, wait there's more.

    This gives the wholesaler 2 to 3 years free ride. By that time as those with the regulatory
    burden drop by the wayside because the burdens cannot be met there becomes a point
    in order to stay in business the wholesaler would have to brand and prepare the juice
    for individual sale to the end users. Now the wholesaler becomes the manufacturer and
    now has the regulatory burdens imposed by the regulations. At this juncture it is unclear to me
    what the time frame to complete the market entry process will be. The juice was on the market but
    the new manufacturer wasn't under the regulatory burdens. Again my best guess would be
    an additional 2 years to prepare and apply with another year for approval. Could be a total
    of 6 years of a free ride. I fully expect that during the later time frame considering 99.9%
    of the competition has been eliminated the FDA will step in change a few word in the
    regulations and divvy up the spoils with the real players or change nothing and everything
    reverts back to the status quo because whats left of the market would be statistically
    irrelevant.

    @kbf101998
    Ditto

    Regards
    Mike
     

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