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Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

Discussion in 'General Vaping Discussion' started by Oliver, May 5, 2016.

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  1. lauragal

    lauragal Super Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 8, 2008
    New York
    And there have been SO many fatalities as a result of driving while vaping (roll eyes). I think the FDA and government need to rethink their priorities. I can't believe that this has come to this level. America needs to really think about how much government they want in their lives. Time for a big change.
    • Like Like x 5
  2. kbf101998

    kbf101998 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 30, 2013
    Brentwood, Tn, USA
    The first article explains very thoroughly WHY the FDA is 'Deeming' these specific regulations and why any 'fight' the vaping community is 'fighting and will continue to fight' may be futile. Vapers are already targeted to be the group that will make up revenue that has been lost. The revenue that is being lost goes MUCH deeper than just taxes--and most states (California in particular) has already spent their MSA yearly allotted funds that were to be paid to the State for the next 24 years--billions of dollars--all of it. They were able to spend it before they received it because of the Trusts and the Bond Companies that were set up by the politicians so that they could get their piece of the BT pie. Without the volume of sales and the Federal, State and local taxes that were imposed to produce the revenue--the states will not be able to continue to get the AMOUNT they need to pay off the bonds and pay back the trust. That is just a small part of the scheme that has been going on for years. I encourage you to take time to read every word on all 51 pages. It is always about the money--but this goes way beyond what the average person thinks of "as just another imposed tax" that most of us were willing to pay, when we were addicted to cigarettes. It is interesting that the states that spent all of the money 21-24 years early--are the states that have worked the hardest to demonize the vaping industry, pushed the hardest and lied the most.

    Thank you Ocelot for posting this link.

    The drift from Capitalism and Freedom started long ago and has ramped up speed the last 8 years, the government has been able to begin to control EVERY single thing that you might choose to do, say, or be, while at the same time determining how they can destroy any history, values, or traditions that we have enjoyed in this country. Cameras have been installed so that they can monitor activity and bring to task those that choose not to be controlled. Beyond that they have invaded the privacy of our homes with 'smart Barbies' (for the children), Smart TV's, Smart phones and computers that can watch you and record conversations you have in the perceived privacy of your home, then send the data to a clearing house where all conversations that have the 'key' or 'flagged' words in a conversation you may have had with a friend, a spouse, a child or a parent, in the privacy of your own home--gives them the right to enter your home and seize all of your devices and any of your personal belongings and any bank account that they may want. I heard not long ago on a local news station that in the next couple of years even our toasters will be 'smart'--they will record what is discussed around the toaster.This made me a little more appreciative of my loud worn out dishwasher. I want to nurse this 'dumb' appliance along for as long as I can. A Smart dishwasher could be very dangerous to the entire family. Then there are the 'smart' additions to our vehicles...

    For the last 8 years the government has slowly and methodically taken many of our rights and freedoms away and many people are not even aware of what they have lost. Most of this was made easier when Obamacare passed and was slowly implemented (as our lawmakers were finally learning what was in the bill that they passed never thinking it might be important to read it first) they were now hoping that the big awful things that robbed us of our rights-- and took a bigger chunk of our money...--that these things would go unnoticed as people went about the day to day activities and dealt with the issues that had an impact on their lives, the issues of the moment. After the initial outrage and uproar over the whole mess was over people went back to focusing on their own busy lives and issues--the law began to be revealed step by step with very little notice or comment about the things that were happening because of it, and that was just fine for our lawmakers.

    This coming year when a family decides to SELL their house in order to move to another state for another job, or simply they would like to have a different house--they will be shocked when they are told that they owe SALES TAX to the federal government because they sold their home. Yes the SELLERS will owe the tax, not the buyers. I will rant no further here, as it would be too long for anyone to read. A person that really wants to know what is in store for them as this law is fully implemented may want to read it -- to be prepared for the horrors.

    But I will mention, that just today our local news informed us that: Eating a taco on May 5th is offensive --so it should not be done. Evidently it offends others if you eat a taco on May 5th. However you can eat them any other time, that is ok, as long as it is not done on May 5th. And at a State University here in our great State, a sorority decided to have an event called Taco Tuesday, to get together and eat and have some social time- and fun, that event violated a new rule at the University, a rule that virtually no one really knew existed, because those that create these new rules do not have to publicize that a new rule has been made. That sorority has been banned from their campus and has to pay a stiff fine for the offense, properly dealt with and punished, because fun is no longer allowed.

    This week here in our state, after school two six year old boys exited the school bus and then got in to a fight. They eventually resolved it without any serious injury and went on home. The officials looked at the video (of course there were cameras) of this 'event' and then went to the homes of the other children that were present but not involved, and arrested the older children that happened to be in the same place because they too exited the school bus--understand that these children did not even know either one of these boys that were fighting and were not involved in any way-- the children that were arrested ranged in age 8 to 12 years old, they were handcuffed, put in the back of a police car, and as their stunned parents watched were taken to the local police station, and charged with NOT DOING ANYTHING to STOP THE FIGHT, evidently that is a new offense for 8 to 12 year old children who then need to hire attorneys, and go through the court system to be punished for standing at a place where something bad takes place and not taking any action to stop what is happening.

    What does all this have to do with the FDA'S Deemings--EVERYTHING--we now live in a country where most everything has changed in regards to personal choices, and liberty, very little of those two things exist anymore. Most everything is dealt with in a punitive manner. It is all about punishment, because that is how power is gained, if others are punished, and put in their place, then the powerful have more power and control, and the power and control leads to the $$$$$. And eventually it ALL really comes down to the $$$$$$$$$$$$.

    The FDA has decided that Vapers must be punished, financially for sure, emotionally is a must! The more miserable it can be, the better. They could care less, about health for any individual, the less healthy our society can be, the fewer people they eventually have to deal with-- it all works out for the purpose intended, and there are fewer elderly people to deal with down the road. If they can force people to go back to tobacco and smoke cigarettes regularly, many will die at a younger age than if they did not smoke, and the necessary revenue needed, to continue the flow of billions -- is raised and spent. It's WIN WIN in their opinion--the revenue is restored and many people are eliminated.

    I have a vision of the not too far off future... My children and grandchildren go to the grocery store to buy the food they need for the week, as they approach the check out line there is a scale to weigh them, a blood pressure cuff , and a machine to test their blood, before they check out--if anyone in the family is overweight, foods that have been determined to be the 'cause' will be removed and they will be forbidden to purchase those, if their blood pressure is up--they are not allowed to buy any thing that has sodium or salt content, and of course the blood test can eliminate the processed food, anything with sugar, including fresh fruits or juices, most meat would be forbidden because the fat can affect the sugar count, bacon of course is a big no no. They certainly won't be allowed any tomatoes or other vegetables that might contain nicotine. I wonder what they will be able to eat as they drink their bottled water??????

    For years I have felt that there is something very wrong for a society that is subjected to BP's ads about drugs we don't necessarily need, many for conditions that make no sense or have been 'made up' to fit the drug. The drugs that are advertised- have side effects that certainly leave people in a worse state than they were before they started taking a drug that is advertised. What the drug is supposed to take care of, creates horrors with the side effects it produces. And now it isn't enough to just take 1 pill for a thing--now often times there is a pill to make the original pill work better, and it has it's own set of side effects that contain the words like "can cause cancer' or 'can often be fatal'. These drugs all approved by the FDA!

    Those commercials are followed by the commercials that feature attorney's getting settlements in the six figure range for people that took last year's 'drug of the day' for a condition that no one had ever heard of and were harmed by those drugs. All drugs that...wait for it... were approved by the FDA. All of these ads feature nostalgic music and smiling happy people--the drug ads and the attorney ads.

    The irony is that one cannot just walk in to a pharmacy and purchase any of these drugs -that have been approved by the FDA- that are incessantly being advertised. A doctor visit ($$$$) must first take place and a prescription for the deadly doses must be written--then off to the pharmacy that no longer fills the prescription on the spot while a person waits--but now has created a long miserable process, that can take up to 24 hours, with many checks along the way that a person is really the person who the prescription was written for. And it is mandatory that you are 'counseled' before you can have the drug--there is a special 'window' at the pharmacy for this to take place and it is mandatory that you go to that window to be counseled before you can have your antibiotic or whatever has been prescribed. I guess that is preparation for the defense for the pending lawsuits that take place the next year... for people who are convinced by the advertising attorneys to sue BP because they took the drugs that had been approved by the FDA, and when taken, the drug harmed or killed them, if they died the family of the victim deserve to be paid millions of $.

    The last few years, many changes have quietly taken place... quietly without a lot of media coverage, because they really don't want people to be too aware of what they are losing...

    The first time I took serious 'action' to stockpile a product that the government decided they needed to regulate, and decide what was best for me to use was light bulbs! When it was determined that incandescent light bulbs needed to be eliminated and replaced with light bulbs that were good for me and 'the environment', but needed a hasmat team to clean up if one broke, and also a bulb when sold - lined pockets of those that created and supported the new law with $$$, I decided NO--those are NOT for me and I began to prepare for the fluorescent future. Most all my friends and family totally made fun of me and laughed about all the boxes of light bulbs that arrived on a regular basis. Now they all live in fluorescent light land with dangerous light bulbs in the house with their 'children', and continually ask to borrow or buy light bulbs from me because they can't find what they need in the stores, because the stores are forbidden to sell them. I have enough light bulbs to last the rest of my life. All sizes, all watts, all kinds, flood lights for outdoor, recessed can lights, regular bulbs in all watts, appliance replacement bulbs, nite lights, string lights etc. When it was announced that after a two year period that purchasing incandescent bulbs would be 'against the law', I created a strategy and spread out the purchases over a 11 month time frame. I am set with light bulbs for life, unless they storm my personal property to seize the forbidden items.

    After that experience, when I started vaping in 2013, and shortly after that-- the FDA began to show us what we were in for. I began to prepare for the future...

    Long post--I know--it just took that many words!
    • Like Like x 34
  3. Taowulf

    Taowulf Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 9, 2014
    Bend OR

    Yup. I took a break from reading more of the FDA banning document to try to catch up on this thread. But it is chasing a greased pig, every time I think i catch up it squirts away on me.
    • Like Like x 6
  4. Kurt

    Kurt Quantum Vapyre ECF Veteran

    Sep 16, 2009
    I don't want to clog this important thread with DIY stuff, but I thought I would jump in briefly for those wondering about how to store nic long term. My thoughts on this matter have changed a bit from what I "knew" years ago, but not much, and not in my methodology.

    I have unthinned VG-nic in well-sealed glass in the freezer that is virtually unchanged after 6.75 years. In plastic, especially LDPE, it will oxidize, even in the freezer. Some PG-nics I've had in glass did oxidize in the freezer after about a year, some didn't. I don't vape PG-nic, nor have I had any for a few years, so I don't have more data on that, but it seems that the cleaner the nic, the longer it will freeze unchanged in PG. I think others here (Salem?) has found this too. Most nic today is very clean compared to 2009.

    I don't have data on frozen ready-to-vape e-liquids with flavors, since I make my own fresh as I need them. I don't buy flavored e-liquids, and I only freeze unflavored VG-nic, mostly 100 mg/mL.

    If you feel better by purging the headspace air with N2 or Ar to rid it of O2, ok. However, I think it is a negligible effect. 3 mL of headspace air at 25% O2 will give enough O2 to at most react with about 5 mg of nicotine. And that is only if it all reacts. VG naturally contains about 2 mg of O2 per liter, which if it all reacts will oxidize about 0.38 mg of nic...per liter of VG.

    If the nic started out colorless before freezing, and it remains colorless, it has not oxidized. Nic-oxides are deep brown colored, and it takes barely any at all to yellow a nic solution. It takes considerable coloration before the original nic concentration is significantly impacted...although you may detect a tobacco taste and added TH. Testing is fine if you want to do that, but no color change means no oxidation. And kit titrations are really only accurate to about +/- 10%. 10% oxidation will be a very deep orange-brown. I used to test, I just use color now.

    Cold slows all reactions down, frozen solid or not (VG does not freee entirely). This is a function of chemical kinetics and molecular dynamics...nic and O2 cannot move well in the thick glue-like liquid that VG turns into in at freezer temps, so they don't find each other as easily. And since the only real source of O2 that can impact nic is from the external environment, well-sealed glass takes care of that. Plastics tend to be rather O2-porous.

    Yes, very cold VG will absorb water from the air, but again, this is a negligible effect. VG is too thick to syringe or work with very cold, anyway, so allowing it warm to room temp before opening is normal.

    Making diluted unflavored nic with added water will introduce more O2, but probably very little. Viscosity is lower, however, so nic cycles to the surface more often...but again, if it is sealed in glass, I doubt the effect after a long time in the freezer will be noticeable. I don't do this, however, and I don't have concrete data on this.

    Cold VG will expand when warmed, so I advocate a few mL of headspace. Let the bottle warm standing up...that air bubble will expand more than VG and can cause leaking under the cap if the bottle is on its side and in a warm environment.

    I use 50 mL Eurodropper amber bottles (Essential Oil Amber Dropper Bottles | Specialty Bottle). This is a company that makes glass for chemicals, so it is not cheap glass with many defects that can crack with temp change. I've never had a break, but I'm not saying it is impossible. Glass is glass. The dropper insert protects against spilling and allows syringe access to the liquid. Others use glass bottles with cone-caps for good sealing. They have blue and green glass as well. Dark is good, but it is UV that catalyzes oxidation most, not so much visible light, and freezers are dark. I have some of my nic in colorless glass bottles, and they have not changed in the freezer in the years I've had them, maybe 4 years...and even at room temp, oxidation is very very slow if in well sealed glass. A 50 mL bottle out for usage will last me months of mixing with very little change.

    I have every reason to believe VG-nic will last essentially forever unchanged in the freezer and in glass. If 6.75 years shows no change, I don't see at all why it shouldn't last for decades.
    • Like Like x 59
  5. nicnik

    nicnik Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2015
    Illinois, USA
    Is this how I will start sounding if I read all 51 pages? Maybe I'll pass on it ...
    • Like Like x 8
  6. Katya

    Katya ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Feb 23, 2010
    Thanks again, Kurt! I don't know what we would do without you and your knowledge! :wub:
    • Like Like x 13
  7. nicnik

    nicnik Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2015
    Illinois, USA
    Thanks Kurt!

    I've seen where you wrote once that storing in plastic can result in plastic leaching. With LPDE bottled 75/25 PG/VG nic in the freezer, will that be a problem? I don't mind much some loss of potency, but I fear consuming much plastic.
    • Like Like x 4
  8. HBcorpse

    HBcorpse Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 23, 2013
    • Like Like x 22
  9. Taowulf

    Taowulf Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 9, 2014
    Bend OR
    I had to clip most of that and I completely understand the driving urge to keep typing, I spent about 6 hours today writing and researching a huge wall of text that I posted on Facebook earlier today. One part that I wrote relevant to your reference to the MSA -

    "In November of 1998, 46 states and the four largest tobacco companies in the US entered into the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement (MSA). This agreement settled a lawsuit regarding the advertising, marketing and promotion of their #1 product, cigarettes. Basically, it prevents direct marketing to youth, additional prohibitions on advertising, marketing and promotional programs as well as banning use of "cartoons" and well as outdoor marketing (billboards, media product placement and free product samples). This also led to many of the anti-smoking ads we have seen over the last 18 years, like the ones from Truth. Paid for by smoking dollars.

    Oh, and there was even more money. A minimum of $206 billion over the first 25 years of the agreement. In fact, it was tied into the sales of cigarettes directly. If cigarette sales stayed (or declined) at a steady rate, the states would reap more. If sales went down, so would the amount of money received by the 46 states. We are frequently told to not count our chickens before they hatch, but states like California projected income based on smoking rates and issued bonds against the future projected income from the settlement. Then smoking rates went down. In 1997, the CDC reported that 24.7% of the adults in the US were smokers. By 2014, this has dropped to 14.9%. The trend was even accelerating. Those bonds that are supposed to be backed by the MSA money? According to one source I found, they were based on an annual 3-3.5% decline in consumption. In 2009, the decline was 9.35%. This source also said that the bonds are likely to default. In 2011, California, Virginia and Ohio all had to dip into debt reserve funds to make up for under-performing tobacco bonds. Of course, they need to find revenue to make up for this shortfall, therefore the reason many states are looking to sin tax vaping...even though, unlike cigarettes and alcohol, they have no evidence to use the "offset costs of health related issues" due to vaping like they have for smoking and liquor in the past. California has the most offensive anti-vaping propaganda push that I have seen, with their "Still Blowing Smoke" campaign. It is full of junk science and bull.... assertions. For a counterpoint, vaping enthusiasts have countered with "Not blowing smoke" and another good anti-regulation ad campaign is "One Billion Lives". Look them up if you want to see how vapers are fighting the perception that the crusaders are trying to foster."
    • Like Like x 8
  10. Kent C

    Kent C ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2009
    NW Ohio US
    After invaluable advice by Kurt now over three years ago, I can attest to this colorless 'test'. As I pull Decadent Vapours Nic base (of Aqueous Glycerin+nic) from the freezer to the refrigerator for use, it has remained clear each time I access a new bottle.
    • Like Like x 5
  11. KODIAK (TM)

    KODIAK (TM) Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 31, 2014
    Dead Moose, AK
    Seriously? Why, the "PC" police of course. The same people that chastise you for vaping upwind of their holier-than-thou sinuses. The ones that lecture you on the evils of e-cigs because they've heard it on late night comedy television (Their primary source of truth).

    Prohibition had their axe-wielding Carrie Nation. We'll certainly have ours.
    • Like Like x 6
  12. Hulamoon

    Hulamoon ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 6, 2012
    Waikiki Hawaii
    All good and true. And yes, money is where it starts and stops. So, they're not going to get vaper sin tax, because the FDA is making the whole shebang flat out illegal. Yes? So their hope is we'll all go back to smoking? Or the hope is State politicans will start blowing big ones in Congress because their replacement vaping revenue stream and regular incoming sales taxes/employment etc. of and by b&m store operations has stopped before it got going? They surely aren't thinking that we're all going back to those ghastly little cig-alikes made by BT, are they???? If so I already have the answer to that one - and it involves an el grande middle finger.
    • Like Like x 3
  13. rothenbj

    rothenbj Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 23, 2009
    Green Lane, Pa
    That's why I posted that I hadn't read the regs. and my knowledge came from other posts. Too many assumptions with no acknowledgement of where the information is coming from.

    Two years is a world of time, particularly considering the there's a major election in Nov (time to get the candidates positions) plus any legislative or legal efforts that can be brought into the conversation.

    The only two things that really should be done right now are 1. Join CASAA and get others to do the same. Geese, it doesn't cost anything to put your name on the list and insure that you hear when things need to be done to help the cause 2. Consider, seriously, to contributing to their efforts. It takes serious money, even for non-profits, to fight for the consumer. The last number I saw was a bit over 100k members which needs to grow. A dollar a month by each member and there'd be $100,000 a month for the cause. Get even a quarter of all vapers to join and contribute, now we have real fire power.

    All the money that's raised to put someone in the White House who we'll be complaining about the next 4/8 years and we have trouble raising money in a fight for our lives? That's crazy.

    In full disclosure, I sat down 5/6 years ago and looked at what smoking was costing me (not even considering health wise) and what it was costing me to vape and decided I could afford donating $25/month to the cause. Donating a dollar a two from an ex-smoker should be a no brainer.
    • Like Like x 11
  14. bobwho77

    bobwho77 Super Member ECF Veteran

    May 8, 2014
    Ypsilanti mi

    We should probably stop with differentiating Nicotine free juice. To the FDA, it's All tobacco products. MY general rule, from now on THERE IS NO TOBACCO IN IT! (regardless of the nicotine concentrations, or how/where that nicotine was extracted.
    • Like Like x 4
  15. rilot

    rilot Full Member

    Sep 8, 2015
    As a Brit, I find it utterly shocking how the so called Land of the Free can come down on our vaping as hard as they have. I mean, I thought we had it bad in the EU with our Tobacco Products Directive but it's small fry in comparison.
    • Like Like x 11
  16. rothenbj

    rothenbj Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 23, 2009
    Green Lane, Pa
    We do every thing big in the States, when it comes down to bureaucraps getting involved. It gets even bigger when $$$$ are involved.
    • Like Like x 4
  17. Bonskibon

    Bonskibon Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 11, 2015
    USA Northeast
    I just wanted to take a moment from all this and wish all the mother's out there a very Happy Mother's Day! Perhaps we may be blessed with some sales today. :)
    • Like Like x 7
  18. 7sixtwo

    7sixtwo Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 5, 2013
    the hinterlands
    This seems idiotic. A single judge granting an injunction against implementation until the entire case plays out would at the least buy us more time.
    • Like Like x 6
  19. DaveP

    DaveP PV Master & Musician ECF Veteran

    May 22, 2010
    Central GA
    Lithium batteries are used in hundreds of products these days. Electronic cigarettes are just one of those. I will still be able to buy them for my high tech flashlights and my phone. Some mods also use the flat pack phone type LiPo batteries.

    Lithium batteries won't go away.
    • Like Like x 3
  20. Nic-holio

    Nic-holio Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2012
    North Carolina
    At the end of the day all of this just comes down to the federal government usurping authority from the states and the people, and taxing it all. Oh, they claim they're doing it for the sake of the children... suuuuure... mmm-hmmm. They said that about why they raided the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas in 1993 too. (and burned 17 children to death among all the others they roasted)

    Make no mistake. It is all about taxes and power.

    May your chains rest upon you lightly.
    • Like Like x 10

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