Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Katya]

So, it died around 1935-1937.

I don't know, but our founders were very aware of the dangers. It's a process. Slippery slope, if you will. Constant battle.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yeild, and government to gain ground."
-Thomas Jefferson

 

[Katya]

How in the world can anybody establish that, or much of anything, with the mess of text FDA dumped on us?

Hey, don't look at me.

 

[Qew]

Weasel words indeed. Similar stuff for an earlier case where they got someone selling balloons at a concert, that were then filled with nitrous oxide (but not by the balloon vendor). Using this 'rationale':

They can use - “any . . . relevant source,” including but not limited to the product’s labeling, promotional claims, and advertising"

And:
"To establish a product’s intended use, FDA is not bound by the manufacturer or
distributor’s subjective claims of intent, but rather can consider objective evidence, which may
include a variety of direct and circumstantial evidence. Thus, FDA may also take into account
any circumstances surrounding the distribution of the product or the context in which it is sold.

They don't word anything to make clear what they HAVE to do or WILL do. They seem pretty good at writing out what they want everyone else to do! They might do this, they may, or, they may not, they can if they want to?

 

[nicnik]

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yeild, and government to gain ground."

Wake up late, and you might mistake it for the other way around.

 

[nicnik]

They don't word anything to make clear what they HAVE to do or WILL do. They seem pretty good at writing out what they want everyone else to do! They might do this, they may, or, they may not, they can if they want to?

OK, so we may or may not obey.

 

[mpols]

Dr. Michael Siegel posted a new blog. FDA Regulations Present an Imminent Threat to the Safety of the Public: Urgent Changes are Needed

While I have already argued that the FDA deeming regulations pose a long-term threat to the public's health because they will result in the removal of most vaping products from the market (so cigarette sales will continue uncontested), today I explain why these regulations pose a substantial immediate threat to the public's health...

[FULL TEXT REMOVED]

 

[Kent C]

They don't word anything to make clear what they HAVE to do or WILL do. They seem pretty good at writing out what they want everyone else to do! They might do this, they may, or, they may not, they can if they want to?

That's typical of a fascist state - what they can do, if they want - which means a total subjective and selective enforcement. Just the opposite of 'Rule of Law'.


"Irascible old John Adams enshrined the concept of "a government of laws, not of men," in the 1780 Massachusetts state constitution, but his words expressed a firm conviction held throughout the 13 colonies in the years leading to the American Revolution."

 

[Katya]

Dr. Michael Siegel posted a new blog. FDA Regulations Present an Imminent Threat to the Safety of the Public: Urgent Changes are Needed

Makes perfect sense to us, but apparently not to anyone else.

 

[The Ocelot]

and thus deemed a covered tobacco product?

Dually covered and more dangerous. Caffeine potentiates nicotine.

 

[nicnik]

Dr. Michael Siegel posted a new blog. FDA Regulations Present an Imminent Threat to the Safety of the Public: Urgent Changes are Needed

A line from the comments section:

Then it all comes down to interpreting; if these electronic devices, actually do grow in tobacco fields.

Also, in the comments, Siegel's being taken to task for blaming the tobacco companies for the "light cigarettes" farce. He's conceded some, but still getting hit...still reading....

 

[Katya]

A line from the comments section:


Also, in the comments, Siegel's being taken to task for blaming the tobacco companies for the "light cigarettes" farce. He's conceded some, but still getting hit...still reading....

It always happens. He's the original, founding ANTZ.

He is personally responsible for demonizing tobacco and its real or perceived dangers... But he has seen the light and now is a great advocate for vaping. There are others, but I won't name names. I'm glad to have them in our camp.

 

[nicnik]

It always happens. He's the original, founding ANTZ.

He is personally responsible for demonizing tobacco and its real or perceived dangers...

Right, but this one I'm fully rooting for. I can't believe he's still making that claim.

 

[drysprocket]

I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I'm losing track. This Q&A with Dr. Siegel was really informative. The 42min mark really touches on what I hope our message becomes: Why do we have to prove vaping is beneficial to public health, when tobacco companies don't have to prove that? In fact we know that it's certainly not.

He goes on to explain why this should be our key message, and I totally agree. Putting everything else aside- this one fact is the simplest way to call shenanigans on all of it. If we get bogged down in side arguments and details, I just don't see how we can win. Heck, I've been reading this thread for days and barely understand half of it still.

Worth watching the full thing for those that haven't.

 

[The Ocelot]

I'm going to the store. Any posts I make later this evening may be under the influence of sedative-enhanced beverages.

 

[nicnik]

and thus deemed a covered tobacco product?

I think it was merely upgraded from 6 degress to 4 degrees from a tobacco leaf.

 

[bigdancehawk]

How in the world can anybody establish that, or much of anything, with the mess of text FDA dumped on us?

Oh, I'm confident I could do it. I've done more than my share of that sort of thing. But you might have to pay me.

 

[nicnik]

That's typical of a fascist state - what they can do, if they want - which means a total subjective and selective enforcement. Just the opposite of 'Rule of Law'.

A big factor in the disroportionate racial makeup of the prison population in the US.

 

[zoiDman]

...
Short Term:

∙ Age verification required by photo ID;

I think that buying online is going to turn into a mess a lot sooner than many people are expecting.

This, Age verification required by photo ID, is the Main Reason I went on a Hardware Spree for the last 3 Months.

I knew that New Products would get the Axe Shortly after Deeming was Finalized. But I am/was Unwilling to fork over a Copy of my DL to a e-Cigarette Retailer for existing products.

 

[YoursTruli]

Dr. Michael Siegel posted a new blog. FDA Regulations Present an Imminent Threat to the Safety of the Public: Urgent Changes are Needed

did you catch what Bill Godshall had to say in the comments?

"Bill Godshall • 13 hours ago

The most immediate public health and safety threat posed by FDA's inhumane cigarette protecting vapor product ban is the now skyrocketing sales of highly concentrated nicotine e-liquid to vapers for stockpiling and for mixing (i.e. manufacturing) their own e-liquid at home.

After August 8, 2016, the 2,500 vape shops (that buy 100mg/ml nicotine and mix their own e-liquids for customers) will be banned from selling newly manfuctured e-liquid to consumers (and will only be able to sell prebottled e-liquid products that were already on the market on 8/8/16).

So instead of 2,500 vape shops buying and mixing 100mg/ml (or more highly concentrated) nicotine e-liquid, a million or more vapers will soon be buying and mixing 100mg/ml e-liquid in their homes."

wow really? so does this mean when current stock of prebottled eliquid runs out after 8/8/16 that shops will no longer be able to make and sell their eliquid? That is not how I understood it, I thought as long as it was the exact same eliquid recipes they had been making before that date they could continue to make it...

 

[nicnik]

Oh, I'm confident I could do it. I've done more than my share of that sort of thing. But you might have to pay me.

How much do we owe you for what you helped with, so far?