The only "vape" shop we had in 2012 was like that. By 2014 we had 4 dedicated ones. I don't know how many we have now.
Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
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The only "vape" shop we had in 2012 was like that. By 2014 we had 4 dedicated ones. I don't know how many we have now.
Haven't read the entire discussion between you and don't know the context, but I heard this said in an interview with a radio show host, who is also a vaping activist. Vicky something or other. There was a link in one of the threads (maybe even this one !?).
Is it unreasonable to suppose that if the Chairman on Governmental affairs AND Homeland security, does not agree with the the FDA regarding their rights in THESE governmental affairs, that that same chairman, who beats the drum for border security , is then going to bend over backwards to SUPPORT the FDA in trying to eliminate vaping equipment and supplies from the marketplace?
Maybe if POLITICS was not involved..
My question would be, is any of this an issue for homeland security? Not a rhetorical one. Governmental affairs I can see. Maybe sparking an underground nicotine trade is a HS matter?
I know that was sarcasm but it just emphasizes my point.
The point of the thought experiment was that if the vendor, sees reality - deeming is reality, then they may find no point in either putting out information or informing their customers - just do business as well as they can for 2 years and then shut down. It's why some here don't do petitions. Doesn't mean other shouldn't, just it's a waste of their own time and effort. Some have been down this path in other areas and know that emailing congress also isn't that effective. Others will go to DC and recite inane slogans and think they're 'doing something'. Or wear a ribbon or something. lol.
As far as the 'many other members' - yes anecdotal. I've seen and we have videos of vape shop owners doing much for the cause. But again, no study on exactly how many, so it makes no sense to attempt to make a case off that. Well... it may make sense to some (again anti-business bias types) but it has no meaning. A person goes into a shop and sees no CASAA stuff or any information on the deeming, they may hang for a while but they aren't there all day so the 'many other members' translates into maybe a hour tops of 'observing' vs. the 40 hours a week that the business is open for months or years.
I don't really know the context of your discussion with xrcess, but when i go back and read the pages i've read, i may have a response
btw, here's that interview. min 2:25Stream Vicki McKenna HR 3 Friday Free | 1310 WIBA
As if I said that.
Now you're losing my respect by again, putting words in my mouth I did not say, in order to bolster your "argument". And more anecdotal crap.... I'm done here. I expected more from you. Must have hit a nerve on some of that stuff. Sorry....
Let me give you an example of customs being at odds with another government agency. The BATF imposes a $1/btl duty on imports of alcohol, per 750ml. At the border, there is a REAM of paperwork to be filed when an individual brings alcohol into the country. EVERY bottle must be identified. Producer, vintage, you name it.
I had a Mailboxes Etc. account in Ontario, that would accept shipments of wine from the various provincial control board retailers. I once brought a pickup truck, TEEMING with boxes of wine, across the border. Probably 360 bottles, minimum. Tough to not declare a pickup bed full of wine boxes, right? I was waved RIGHT through. Many smaller shipments were treated EXACTLY the same way. In fact, in 100+ cross border excursions, not ONCE was I asked to submit to duty on that wine. Vape gear, there won't even BE a duty. It will just be a ream of paperwork, and send it back. IF the head of HS was a rabid anti-vaper, who knows. As is, NOT happening, I would think.
I had a Mailboxes Etc. account in Ontario, that would accept shipments of wine from the various provincial control board retailers. I once brought a pickup truck, TEEMING with boxes of wine, across the border. Probably 360 bottles, minimum. Tough to not declare a pickup bed full of wine boxes, right? I was waved RIGHT through. Many smaller shipments were treated EXACTLY the same way. In fact, in 100+ cross border excursions, not ONCE was I asked to submit to duty on that wine. Vape gear, there won't even BE a duty. It will just be a ream of paperwork, and send it back. IF the head of HS was a rabid anti-vaper, who knows. As is, NOT happening, I would think.
I don't understand your argument. No one said every business is evil, or has their head in the sand. What was said is that there are businesses, and no no one knows exactly how many, that do not appear to be making the situation known to their customer base. That could be because they themselves don't know or they don't want to. Now, you may believe that efforts like contacting reps are ultimately a waste of time, but those efforts are more likely to succeed the more people that do them. When I post here about shops not doing their part, I'm not calling those shops out. What I am doing is commiserating, and hopefully inspiring others to talk to the shops in their areas. I haven't been to many, but I've been to a few.As if I said that.
If shops don't care if they stay open for more than two years, fine, keep customers in the dark, maybe things will work out anyway.
The Department of Homeland Security is an umbrella agency with many components: About DHS | Homeland Security
Although Sen. Ron Johnson is the chairman of a committee with the word "homeland" in the title, it is a different animal. Information on the committee isn't even on the DHS website.
The Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs (HSGAC) is the Senate’s primary oversight committee with broad jurisdiction over government operations generally and the Department of Homeland Security in particular. Its primary responsibilities are to study the efficiency, economy, and effectiveness of all agencies and departments of the federal government; evaluate the effects of laws enacted to reorganize the legislative and executive branches of government; and study the intergovernmental relationships between the U.S. and states and municipalities, and between the U.S. and international organizations of which the U.S. is a member.
Home | Homeland Security & Governmental Affairs Committee
And while there may be some overlapped with DHS, there is a separate agency for customs. U.S. Customs and Border Protection | Securing America's Borders
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Obviously you don't. I didn't say someone said every business is evil. Really check it out - I didn't say that but again, you're implying that I did. This is three posts in a row that you have done that, and any sensible person reading will know I didn't say any of those things - if they bother to look???
Although some have said/implied they had their head in the sand. What I said that some think - from anecdotal instances (that may not represent what the shop does or what the owners do) that some shops do nothing and don't inform their customers, aren't up to the fight etc. I said that could be the case, or that the people observing have a built in bias against business that makes them think that way.... or that it was that way in their observances and they make a bigger point of it here from only an anecdotal incident. The built in bias is obvious from the fact that it WAS anecdotal and they generalized from that incidence (or two or three).
Exactly! not enough to generalize. And again a 5-15 minute visit to a shop says nothing about what is done for the whole time they are in business.
Once again, I didn't say that. I have said in the past the petitions, esp. to the WhiteHouse or based on change.org are worthless. And I said 'some' here have given up CTAs - not ME - - but I've encouraged multiple times for people to carry out the CTA from CASAA and even go, as I have, beyond that in contacting congress, state legislatures, local officials.... You have seen and 'liked' my posts regarding that. So for you to now imply that I didn't do (or 'believe those efforts are a waste' as YOU state, not me) that is reprehensible - perhaps morally reprehensible.
Kent, I'm genuinely missing your angle here. It seems like, to Less' point in his first post in this exchange, that you're in defense-mode, and it's causing you to miss the point the other side is making.
It's not putting words in you mouth to counter a point being made with "no one is saying they are anti-business", when you keep bringing up anti-business sentiment. Just as it's not putting words in you mouth to make a point like "no one is saying that these experiences are representative of ALL vape shops", when you keep making a point that these experiences are "anecdotal" and don't account for the entire working day of any given shop. Whether it's what you mean or not, these are relevant counters to the points you appear to be making.
....
I travel for work and often visit dozens of unique shops in any given month. With only a few exceptions, my experience has been one of shop owners ignoring, down-playing, and even outright denying the peril of the regs.
That could be seen as a single anecdote, because it's coming from one subject, or it could be seen as dozens of anecdotes, because it's about several subjects, but, either way, trying to assess it terms of "the whole" is irrelevant.
The point, rather, is that, given where we are right now, and what we face in the next couple months/years, letting even a SINGLE customer out the door without some awareness of the dire need for advocacy (let alone encouraged to it), is a failure of the industry to mobilize to its potential.
I made the point earlier that SFATA should encourage their member-retailers to visit a gun shop and engage the owner in a discussion about legislation.
If there is a potential law/ban on the docket, which there almost always is in any given area, every shop owner, almost without exception, will try to educate the customer and work them up to advocacy. This is how battles are won; in the grass-roots.
The gun industry has a MUCH larger user-base, a MUCH bigger lobby group, more experienced lawyers, and even a dedicated constitutional amendment on their side, but they STILL don't miss an opportunity to drum up direct-consumer support and advocacy.
The vape industry, on the other hand, lacks many of those advantages, and even the maturity to realize that the individual customers are the most important weapon they have. In many cases, that are being anecdotally reported here, customers are being left in ignorant bliss for, ostensibly, a fear that they might panic and quit or start DIYing.
In places where ammunition availability is in peril, the gun shop owners will still not only make their customers aware of it, they'll sell them a reloading press, powder, and bullets and encourage them to "DIY".
This is how battles are won.
And the vape industry is in real danger of failing to realize it until after the tactic is no longer viable.
It's not putting words in you mouth to counter a point being made with "no one is saying they are anti-business", when you keep bringing up anti-business sentiment. Just as it's not putting words in you mouth to make a point like "no one is saying that these experiences are representative of ALL vape shops", when you keep making a point that these experiences are "anecdotal" and don't account for the entire working day of any given shop. Whether it's what you mean or not, these are relevant counters to the points you appear to be making.
....
I travel for work and often visit dozens of unique shops in any given month. With only a few exceptions, my experience has been one of shop owners ignoring, down-playing, and even outright denying the peril of the regs.
That could be seen as a single anecdote, because it's coming from one subject, or it could be seen as dozens of anecdotes, because it's about several subjects, but, either way, trying to assess it terms of "the whole" is irrelevant.
The point, rather, is that, given where we are right now, and what we face in the next couple months/years, letting even a SINGLE customer out the door without some awareness of the dire need for advocacy (let alone encouraged to it), is a failure of the industry to mobilize to its potential.
I made the point earlier that SFATA should encourage their member-retailers to visit a gun shop and engage the owner in a discussion about legislation.
If there is a potential law/ban on the docket, which there almost always is in any given area, every shop owner, almost without exception, will try to educate the customer and work them up to advocacy. This is how battles are won; in the grass-roots.
The gun industry has a MUCH larger user-base, a MUCH bigger lobby group, more experienced lawyers, and even a dedicated constitutional amendment on their side, but they STILL don't miss an opportunity to drum up direct-consumer support and advocacy.
The vape industry, on the other hand, lacks many of those advantages, and even the maturity to realize that the individual customers are the most important weapon they have. In many cases, that are being anecdotally reported here, customers are being left in ignorant bliss for, ostensibly, a fear that they might panic and quit or start DIYing.
In places where ammunition availability is in peril, the gun shop owners will still not only make their customers aware of it, they'll sell them a reloading press, powder, and bullets and encourage them to "DIY".
This is how battles are won.
And the vape industry is in real danger of failing to realize it until after the tactic is no longer viable.
Medications and lack of rest aside...... Please pardon the Period.
Please point me to this? Better?
By the way, Supersizing text was uncalled for. If you did listen to the Senator you understood my reasoning.
This was , I believe, his first interview speaking with SFATA. May 24th
Episode 6: U.S. Senator Ron Johnson Speaks with SFATA About FDA Deeming Reg - SFATA | Smoke Free Alternatives Trade Association
This would be interview #2 with Talk show host Vicki Mckenni. May 26th
Senator Ron Johnson interviews Vicki McKenna on Vaping | Electronic Vaping Coalition of America
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I just Couldn't be More Disgusted with what has transpired in Indiana. It is WAY Beyond some Kneejerk Legislation. And is to me, Thinly Veiled Corruption and Abuse of Legislative Powers.
This may not be Up-to-date. Just like the TTB site maybe not reflective of the FDA Deeming. But here is what TTB say it uses to Define a "Tobacco Product".
See T12
https://www.ttb.gov/tobacco/tobacco-faqs.shtml#t12
section 5702(c) of Title 26 of the United States Code) defines tobacco products as cigars, cigarettes, smokeless tobacco, pipe tobacco and roll-your-own tobacco. Smokeless tobacco means any snuff or chewing tobacco.
I'm really relieved about this thread right now. I was actually able to go out and run some errands and not come back to 5 pages to catch up on.
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