Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[bigdancehawk]

OK, I am going to put my flame-proof armor on and speak my mind.

Saying the "the FDA wants to kill me" is IMHO a sure fire way to get people to look at me like I am wearing a tinfoil hat. Whether it be true or not, the reaction that I will get from the vast majority is that I am a nutcase.

Really, I dont even believe anyone wants to kill me, I just believe they dont care. It is all about political and financial motivations, and my health is irrelevant.

I have been struggling with how to communicate this whole thing to non-smokers, non-informed vapers, etc. I honestly believe that as soon as I mention BT, or BP, or any of that, I become discredited as a conspiracy nut. The best angle I have been able to come up with is the "denial of my personal rights".

You're exactly right. It shouldn't matter who's behind this or what their motives may be, and anyway it's impossible to prove with the information currently available. And without conclusive evidence, very few people are going to believe that the ALA, AHA, AMA, CFTFK, FDA, etc., are all in the pocket of BT and BP, even though there's probably some truth to it. It should be sufficient to show, with logic, science and common sense that the regulation is terribly bad policy and morally wrong.

 

[crxess]

So cigalike usage in Canada is effectively zero. I use a Vuse from time to time, but I brought it back from a recent Colorado trip. I get more strange looks from that than my Sonw Wolf or Provaris.

So...........Canada is also Dependent on tobacco Sales:
http://www.smoke-free.ca/factsheets/pdf/totaltax.pdf

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Has this been posted?

If Vaping Causes Smoking, Why Are Cigarettes Less Popular Than Ever With Teenagers?

 

[DC2]

Not true. Found some on do-you-own pest control, or something like that. It has been reformulated and is not what is used in human consumption. products with nicotine - Do It Yourself Pest Control

I looked at a few of those and they appear to be using neonicotinoids, not nicotine.
Did you see one that was said it was using nicotine?

 

[crxess]

You're exactly right. It shouldn't matter who's behind this or what their motives may be, and anyway it's impossible to prove with the information currently available. And without conclusive evidence, very few people are going to believe that the ALA, AHA, AMA, CFTFK, FDA, etc., are all in the pocket of BT and BP, even though there's probably some truth to it. It should be sufficient to show, with logic, science and common sense that the regulation is terribly bad policy and morally wrong.

It is Provable and the Paper Trails do reveal it. People simply do not care to know or accept it. This Corruption is exactly what A Billions lives is about to Expose and Aaron intends to do A Follow up Documentary "BIG" revealing even more.
Sooner, hopefully, or later people will need to accept and act to Bring this type of corruption to an end.

Government By the Pocket and For the Pocket is an atrocity. A total Injustice to the average citizen.

 

[bigdancehawk]

However, the tobacco companies DO have a vested interest. Bear in mind, we here at ECF are a pretty small minority when it comes to the total number of those using e-cigarettes. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that we're also in a very small minority in using open ended systems where the majority are using disposables and cigalikes that come from the tobacco companies.

The tobacco companies would love nothing more than to see the deeming regulations stand, and they become the only game in town. They have the money to get products approved by the FDA and the patience to wait things out. And that's exactly what will happen if the deeming regulations are allowed to stand by Congress and the courts. In two short years, we may find that systems like Vuse and Blu are the only thing you can get your hands on.

Everything in this post is entirely correct, and of course BT has a vested interest, but I seriously doubt that the deeming regulation is the consequence of a desire on the part of the FDA to benefit BT or because of some conspiracy. Even if it's true, we can't prove it and almost nobody is going to believe it without overwhelming evidence.

 

[bigdancehawk]

Wells Fargo Securities recently announced that the electronic vaporizer market is now an estimated $2.5 billion, and continuously growing. Of the total, and for the first time ever, at least reported, open system vaporizers contribute more than $1.5 billion to the overall market in the U.S., while e-cigs account for $1 billion.

Read more http://guidetovaping.com/2014/10/24/open-system-vaporizers-are-taking-over/

That was Oct. 2014


https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2013I1/Downloads/CommitteeMeetingDocument/40681

Bonnie Herzog estimates for 2015..... basically 60% of the market is VTMs (vapor tank mods - ie open systems).

Your chart shows the reverse. More "e-cig sales" that open system sales.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I looked at a few of those and they appear to be using neonicotinoids, not nicotine.
Did you see one that was said it was using nicotine?

I just went to the website for do your own pest control and searched for 'products containing nicotine'

 

[Mazinny]

Everything in this post is entirely correct, and of course BT has a vested interest, but I seriously doubt that the deeming regulation is the consequence of a desire on the part of the FDA to benefit BT or because of some conspiracy. Even if it's true, we can't prove it and almost nobody is going to believe it without overwhelming evidence.

Yes. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[DC2]

I'll go with the Webster definition :

a secret plan made by two or more people to do something that is harmful or illegal

What's your definition ?

That works for me.

The development of the deeming regulations took place behind closed doors.
And the results of those deeming regulations are very harmful.

And many believe the regulations to be illegal as well to certain extents.


Just out of curiosity, have you ever had the opportunity to read this?
FORCES International - News Portal

And if so, do you not believe it?

 

[bigdancehawk]

I guess it depends on your definition of conspiracy.

And when they align, and the work together, I'd call that a conspiracy.

My definition, which I share with Merriam-Webster, requires covert collusion. Merely sharing common interests or objectives without actual collusion doesn't qualify.

 

[DC2]

My definition, which I share with Merriam-Webster, requires covert collusion. Merely sharing common interests or objectives without actual collusion doesn't qualify.

If there was no collusion I'll eat my hat AND your hat.

 

[crxess]

If Vaping Causes Smoking, Why Are Cigarettes Less Popular Than Ever With Teenagers?

Read and Commented!

Excellent article debunking Jessica Barrington-Trimis et al.

 

[DC2]

If there was no collusion I'll eat my hat AND your hat.

And as I'm passing by I'll just drop this here...
The Untold Story of How & Why Philip Morris is Pushing for FDA Regulation

PM's efforts have tracked closely with its ATI plan. PM approached the National Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids(CTFK) seeking input to formulate its preferred FDA regulations. As the Plan mentioned, PM found common ground with CTFK on the youth smoking issue, and engaged CTFK in its Regulatory Strategy Project to craft FDA regulations in its favor.

 

[bigdancehawk]

It is Provable and the Paper Trail do reveal it. People simply do not care to know or accept it. This Corruption is exactly what A Billions lives is about to Expose and Aaron intends to do A Follow up Documentary "BIG" revealing even more.
Sooner, hopefully, or later people will need to accept and act to Bring this type of corruption to an end.

Government By the Pocket and For the Pocket is an atrocity. A total Injustice to the average citizen.

I haven't seen the film. Have you? And apparently I missed the "paper trial." Where is it?

 

[Mazinny]

That works for me.

The development of the deeming regulations took place behind closed doors.
And the results of those deeming regulations are very harmful.

And many believe the regulations to be illegal as well to certain extents.


Just out of curiosity, have you ever had the opportunity to read this?
FORCES International - News Portal

And if so, do you not believe it?

Has anyone placed tobacco executives or pharma executives behind those closed doors ?

I agree that the results of the deeming regulations are harmful, but that's my opinion and not something that is apparent to a casual observer, or immediately proveable in a court.

I don't see the elements of conspiracy.

 

[zoiDman]

If there was no collusion I'll eat my hat AND your hat.

I don't wear Hats very often. But I don't think you are in much Danger of overeating any Hats.

 

[bigdancehawk]

But aren’t e-cigarettes safer than regular cigarettes? And what about the burden on small businesses?
The FDA recognizes that some tobacco products have the potential to be less harmful than others. But more evidence is needed. The agency is exploring this issue with respect to tobacco regulation.
Is this an Admission they are Full of it?


The FDA believes that this new technology has both potential benefits and risks. If certain products, such as e-cigarettes, have reduced toxicity compared to conventional cigarettes; encourage current smokers to switch completely; and/or are not widely used by youth,Stop Here! The Evidence is Respectfully available and Accurate. The Age Restriction answers (Legal) Teen usage they may have the potential to reduce disease and death.<Again with the Admission! But if any product prompts young people to become addicted to nicotine, Nicotine without Tobacco has Never been Documented to cause an Addiction OR Dependency reduces a person’s interest in quitting cigarettes, Seriously Who, in their right mind would Smoke if Nicotine was all they were interested in?and/or leads to long-term usage with other tobacco products, the public health impact could be negative.Speaking to Recreational Hooka or Vaping - Harm Reduction - The time table is none of their business.

Patches come in 3 Strengths, Gums in 1-2 Strengths ,etc., etc. With Vapor Products we can carefully control exactly what is needed to Ween down or off - If Desired.

That's a lot of "ifs." Draconian regulations that will kill off an entire industry and deny freedom of choice to law abiding citizens should not be based on "ifs."

 

[zoiDman]

If there was no collusion I'll eat my hat AND your hat.

BTW - Who do you think Contributed more to what the Deeming turned out to be? Hamburg or Califf?

Sebelius or Burwell?

 

[retired1]

Everything in this post is entirely correct, and of course BT has a vested interest, but I seriously doubt that the deeming regulation is the consequence of a desire on the part of the FDA to benefit BT or because of some conspiracy. Even if it's true, we can't prove it and almost nobody is going to believe it without overwhelming evidence.

RJ Reynolds (RAI) files FDA comment asking for its competition to be banned

Altria urges FDA to impose Deeming Regulation

The tobacco companies were all for draconian regulations knowing they'd be the only game in town once the dust settled.