Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

Rossum

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Will humidors need to go through FDA approval as they may affect the toxicity level of the tobacco product the contain?
No. Accessories are explicitly exempt and:

"Examples of accessories also include humidors or refrigerators that solely control the moisture and/or temperature of a stored product and conventional matches and lighters that solely provide an external heat source to initiate but not maintain combustion of a tobacco product."

I would further extrapolate that to mean that the freezers we have our nic base in are also "accessories". :)
 

bigdancehawk

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Yes, and I imagine the artisan pipe makers are in the same boat as our artisan mod-makers. :mad:
Does deeming actually cover pipes? I haven't found a definitive answer. Some of those mods you speak of are little works of art. If would be a shame if they're put out of business.
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Rossum

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Does deeming actually cover pipes? I haven't found a definitive answer. Some of those mods you speak of are little works of art. If would be a shame if they're put out of business.
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Right. As you're probably aware, I own some pieces rather similar to that one.

I've not found an explicit reference to artisanal smoking pipes themselves either, but based on my reading, they are implicitly covered since they affect the temperature and other conditions of combustion.
 

Rossum

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Well Rossum, that could be argued to exclude e cigs since there is no combustion and they're only used to create the vapor but not maintain it.
Based solely on that excerpt, yes. But you're ignoring other stuff in the 499 pages that explicitly talk about electronic nicotine delivery systems.
 

Str8vision

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Yeah, and I wonder how the PMTAs will work for pipes and equivalencies. Will they have to prove each one has an equivalent design made of the same raw materials in the same size and will there have to be warnings on every pipe, even the ones that obviously were not meant for smoking tobacco that they are a tobacco product? Will humidors need to go through FDA approval as they may affect the toxicity level of the tobacco product the contain?

As with attys and mods it's going to depend on how .... retentive the FDA (and more precisely certain key members of congress who represent BP and BT) decides to get. Personally, I doubt smoking pipes or cigarette holders will suffer much if any scrutiny whereas mods and attys will be nit picked literally to death. If my "follow the money" corrupt-O-meter is reading accurately the intent will be to allow BT's cigalikes and closed systems to flourish while suppressing/obstructing/hamstringing everything else, oh..uh.. for our safety of course. That's how politics in the U.S. -really- works.
 

frizzy_tyger

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Does deeming actually cover pipes? I haven't found a definitive answer. Some of those mods you speak of are little works of art. If would be a shame if they're put out of business.
27039864333_747797b7f4_h.jpg

Yes the deeming does cover pipes, along with hookas.
 

bigdancehawk

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Right. As you're probably aware, I own some pieces rather similar to that one.

I've not found an explicit reference to artisanal smoking pipes themselves either, but based on my reading, they are implicitly covered since they affect the temperature and other conditions of combustion.
LOL, yep, I'm aware. And a bit jealous 'cause this is my only one and I want more. But I do take some comfort in knowing that this thing is going to last as long as I live.

If pipes are covered, it further illustrates the absurdity of this whole deeming nonsense. Can you imagine what a PMTPA would look like for a corn cob pipe? But I suppose pipe makers could at least go the SE route--not an option for artisan mod makers. Even if Cole-Bishop or HB 2058 is passed, there can be no new artisan mod makers and current makers will not be permitted to add as much as an improved switch or spring without seeking government authorization.

I'm preaching to the choir here, so thanks for enduring my rant.
 

zoiDman

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Why wouldn't those seven senators be contacted to support our bill? :)

By all means, they Should be Contacted.

But I think you will find that they are More Concerned with getting a Carve Out for their Money Givers. Than trying to save a Significant Percentage of the 400,000+ people who Die EVERY Year from Smoking Related Illnesses.
 

Buckeyevapen

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I feel as though I'm in this quiet before the storm. Secretly hoping that with the timing of A Billion lives on 08/06 and upcoming lawsuits having events beyond "being filled" on top of 08/08 that Vaping and hopefully an honest discussion will find its way into the mainstream media. Thus in bolding those allies in Washington we currently have as well as creating the political will and capital for other to join the good guys. I mean health vs revenue could be the story! Hey a former smoker can dream. Happy vaping all and to all a good vape.
 
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DC2

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I feel as though I'm in this quiet before the storm. Secretly hoping that with the timing of A Billion lives on 08/06 and upcoming lawsuits having events beyond "being filled" on top of 08/08 that Vaping and hopefully an honest discussion will find its way into the mainstream media. Thus in bolding those allies in Washington we currently have as well as creating the political will and capital for other to join the good guys. I mean health vs revenue could be the story! Hey a former smoker can dream. Happy vaping all and to all a good vape.
That sounds like a very realistic possibility.
The part in bold being the only thing that might stop it from happening.

But it never hurts to have a dream.
In fact, it's actually quite important to look forward to something in life.
:)
 

Lessifer

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That's a very one sided view of those decisions. I also don't view the constitution as a sacred document, but that's a discussion for another section of the forum.

ETA: actually, at least one of those rulings bodes well for us. An overtly onerous law was struck down because instead of protecting women's health like it purported to do, it created a virtual ban by assuring that few if any facilities would meet the regulations. Sound familiar?
 

Sugar_and_Spice

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That's a very one sided view of those decisions. I also don't view the constitution as a sacred document, but that's a discussion for another section of the forum.

ETA: actually, at least one of those rulings bodes well for us. An overtly onerous law was struck down because instead of protecting women's health like it purported to do, it created a virtual ban by assuring that few if any facilities would meet the regulations. Sound familiar?
Exactly.....and I thought this thread was dead....lol ;)
 

Racehorse

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I've been as critical as anyone of what seems to be a failure to mobilize and/or commit on the part of this community, but I don't think it is the individuals who are at fault.

Sure, everyone could always do something more, and I'm not sure I could claim that vapers are any more prone to mobilize than any other special interest group, but I think that they(we) are on par with other groups, at the individual level.

The failure to mobilize, in my opinion, is due to ignorance to the peril, on the individual level, because of a lack of sophistication and maturity on the part of the community's "leaders".

We've seen almost no evolution in tactics on the part of CASAA et. al. between the regulation draft-phase, the release-phase, and now.

Still, for the most part, the same impotent petitions, calls to contact legislators, and stacks of fliers in shops that they were doing two years ago. They've failed, if they attempted at all, to get placement on news programs and talk radio. There wasn't, that I've heard about at least, a drive to buy showing right to A Billion Lives.

Our community "leaders", our support and mobilization network, seem to be conducting themselves as if they are a campus organization, fighting the dean's administration, to get more environmentally-responsible meal choices in the cafeteria or some such nonsense.

I know that saying that CASAA is anything short of awesome is probably not going to be popular around here, but, in my view, our community "leader" is impotent and immature.

The individuals in the community would/could mobilize to fight this, they just don't have any leadership to inform them of what is going on, let alone mobilize them as a unified force to fight it.

$0.02

I've said this ad naseum even back in 2012.

In CASAA's defense however, they are an advocacy group. They are mostly there to inform....they put out calls to action, PR about vaping, etc. but they do not have a battallion of lawyers, they do not have a PAC or Lobby, etc. They are volunteers with a very small budget.
(Not really sure what some expect them to be doing?)

If anything, it's been people's (and businesses) *reliance* on them that is at fault....they do what they do and given their mission, budget and staff, they are doing what they say they are doing. What I mean is the idea that "CAASA will do it......"

It would certainly help if people would read their *About* page. That way, maybe it will be some clarity about what they do (and what they don't do.)
About CASAA

Back in the day when bans were sweeping across regions, back in the day when Dr. F. was doing his research on flavorings and diacetyl, etc. was when all vendors should have formed an industry trade group (instead of infighting and competing with each other) and do what trade groups do. Pool resources, get a lobby group, hire some attorneys, be a force.

Because I can tell you early on when I looked at some of the orgs that were "trying" to form, there was like 10 vendor members in some of them. Back when there should have been thousands!

This is what happens when you let the grass grow under your feet. However, I am going to assume that many people (who were roofers or coffee makers or something) got into this business to make some big money (for them) and really just figured maybe get in and get out? (now the getting out part is drawing neigh). I don't think they really thought things out, and there has never been a whole lot of cohesion in the industry.

If you've ever been in a company project, or even a volunteer org you know there is always a core group who do the HEAVY LIFTING .....

Conversely, there has always been the serious "we're a real business, we've got a long term plan, we're "all in" vendors, and they were EASILY identifiable early on. (and have grown even bigger since I started vaping in 2012.)

Hence my prediction all along that there would be "Big Vaping" standing when the dust settles, and maybe, because of their benevolence, a few smaller concerns operating out there.

Totally Wicked spent a ton of dough in that last legal battle, had a lobby group, etc. Seems like a lot of vendors are more like free-loaders.....they expect to ride the coat tails of the business people who are actually DOING SOMETHING other than pushing product over a counter or thru the mail........

I really don't have much sympathy. I guess you can tell. Free market economy, nobody gives you a roadmap, you gotta make it on your own, and you have to be able to change and have coping with changes in your business environment at the top of your list.

hundreds of thousands of small businesses go belly up every year.....and I can tell you that most of them were not victims, except of their own lack of business savvy and planning and good FORMAL business model/plan (which includes good advisement from attorney, banking officer, accountant, etc.) The ones in my region (not just vaping concerns) but every imaginable business, either they had crummy inventory, didn't have finances to keep up good inventory, misjudged the need in their community for their service or product, etc. etc. etc. i can go on and on but it's always pretty obvious to me when i 'study' them.

That any of the eliquid vendors thought they could sling ejuice out (complete with dog hairs in the bottle, and other such things that have come up in the early years and even today, leaking dripping packages because they never set up like a real business with their own boxes for their products, correct bottles, etc. that would come leaking in the mail) or stick it out with products that were "yesterday's model"-----so much stuff I have seen, from the perspective of a business person just seemed ASTOUNDING to me........
 
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retired1

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Even today, with the feds breathing down our backs, there's far too much in fighting and sanctimonious whining between various groups. It's not that there's a lack of leadership. Far from it. There are too many chief's claiming they know what's best. After a while, you just tune it all out.
 

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