Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[GaryInTexas]

OK. I've been reading this thread for who knows how long and learning and enjoying, except of course for being screwed by my own gov't...
On the one hand, I love squirrels: smart, persistent, and athletic.
On the other, pains in the .... if they're where you don't want them, attic or bird feeder or wherever.
So, with mixed feelings, I must ask: what do they taste like. And, I'll shoot myself if anyone says chicken.

If you had a grandmother that could make delicious dumplings from lard and added squirrel that was harvested that morning, it was heavenly. yes kinda like chicken

 

[MacTechVpr]

While it's certainly less than perfect, it strikes me as many orders of magnitude better than the situation we are currently facing.

That would seem to be the problem…too many orders for the magnitude of consideration we've been given.

Can't see how a permanent federal preemptive authority still equating tobacco and vaping even as harm reduction is better. Don't see the diff. The bogus need and bureaucratic objectives remain. Reskinned spam is still spam. The subjugation of the States and the individual (ex-smokers as a disenfranchised victimized class) continues. It may then once immortalized only expand from these humble beginnings.

So onward with the next chapter of this heart wrenching novella? I'd have thought we've seen enough of the plot to gather how this story ends.

Good luck.

 

[beckdg]

That would seem to be the problem…too many orders for the magnitude of consideration we've been given.

Can't see how a permanent federal preemptive authority still equating tobacco and vaping even as harm reduction is better. Don't see the diff. The bogus need and bureaucratic objectives remain. Reskinned spam is still spam. The subjugation of the States and the individual (ex-smokers as a disenfranchised victimized class) continues. It may then once immortalized only expand from these humble beginnings.

So onward with the next chapter of this heart wrenching novella? I'd have thought we've seen enough of the plot to gather how this story ends.

Good luck.

Gotta admit Hunter is charismatic when suggesting banning mechs, possibly eliminating replaceable battery mods, eliminating WTA (While unwittingly admitting he may need it), balling it all up in a pretty package for the FDA and freebasing ibuprofen and caffeine.

Both over the counter drugs that have a history of success in suicides and incidental death without the need for direct to respiratory and brain strength.



I guess next BP will have us direct vaping our narcotic pain meds.

Since we should be desensitized by then...

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[Rossum]

So who is going to write a better bill and get a congressman or senator to introduce it before the existing regulations drop the hammer on everything that doesn't have a PMTA filed next year?

 

[Eskie]

So who is going to write a better bill and get a congressman or senator to introduce it before the existing regulations drop the hammer on everything that doesn't have a PMTA filed next year?

Nobody. Legislation is unlikely to be passed in time, if ever. The better outcome is far more likely to originate within the FDA itself with Gottlieb as Commissioner.

 

[beckdg]

So who is going to write a better bill and get a congressman or senator to introduce it before the existing regulations drop the hammer on everything that doesn't have a PMTA filed next year?

Better questions;

What are the chances anything... anything... will be passed before?

So what's the significance and/or usefulness of before?

Nobody. Legislation is unlikely to be passed in time, if ever. The better outcome is far more likely to originate within the FDA itself with Gottlieb as Commissioner.

Maybe.

Though it think the best outcome would come from us actually standing up for ourselves instead of whining from the back of a packed auditorium.

And I don't see that happening until reality has set in deep.

Our new hero is going to have to fire and form entire new committees to do that and still appease Congress.

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[Rossum]

Nobody. Legislation is unlikely to be passed in time, if ever. The better outcome is far more likely to originate within the FDA itself with Gottlieb as Commissioner.

A legislative fix is still needed because it has far more permanence than anything Gottlieb can do. He will only be commissioner until the political winds change direction again. Allowing vaping to remain under the the TCA framework would be a huge mistake, and it seems to me that this is our one chance pull it out of there. Is that chance small? Yes, but it's better than no chance at all.

 

[beckdg]

A legislative fix is still needed because it has far more permanence than anything Gottlieb can do. He will only be commissioner until the political winds change direction again. Allowing vaping to remain under the the TCA framework would be a huge mistake, and it seems to me that this is our one chance pull it out of there. Is that chance small? Yes, but it's better than no chance at all.

Level with me.

Assuming before is set in stone as a condition for success.

Do you really think there's a chance?

I think it's hope you're clinging on to and it's clouding your judgement.

I respect your opinion too much to believe otherwise.

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[Eskie]

A legislative fix is still needed because it has far more permanence than anything Gottlieb can do. He will only be commissioner until the political winds change direction again. Allowing vaping to remain under the the TCA framework would be a huge mistake, and it seems to me that this is our one chance pull it out of there. Is that chance small? Yes, but it's better than no chance at all.

That's true. Legislation is the only long term fix. However, the PMTA requirements will be kicking in by August. That will only be influenced, either by outright non-enforcement, or by delay for clear and realistic guidelines to be issued to clarify the PMTA process is by executive action.

 

[Rossum]

Level with me.

Assuming before is set in stone as a condition for success.

Do you really think there's a chance?

I think it's hope you're clinging on to and it's clouding your judgement.

I respect your opinion too much to believe otherwise.

In 1969, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were getting ready to go to the moon when a reporter asked Armstrong, “When you’re on the moon, how many hours of life support do you have?” Neil Armstrong replied, “Six hours of life support.”

The reporter followed up the question by asking, “What if you discovered when you got on the moon that something was wrong and you couldn’t start up the engine to come back home? What would you do in those six hours you had remaining?” Armstrong said, “I’d work on the engine!”

 

[Opinionated]

A legislative fix is still needed because it has far more permanence than anything Gottlieb can do. He will only be commissioner until the political winds change direction again. Allowing vaping to remain under the the TCA framework would be a huge mistake, and it seems to me that this is our one chance pull it out of there. Is that chance small? Yes, but it's better than no chance at all.

Did you notice how open-to-interpretation everything in that bill was? None of it was nailed down.

Sorry, but that's dangerous.. it's not meant to protect vaping, not in the least. It passes like that and they will literally interpret each aspect however they please.

 

[beckdg]

In 1969, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were getting ready to go to the moon when a reporter asked Armstrong, “When you’re on the moon, how many hours of life support do you have?” Neil Armstrong replied, “Six hours of life support.”

The reporter followed up the question by asking, “What if you discovered when you got on the moon that something was wrong and you couldn’t start up the engine to come back home? What would you do in those six hours you had remaining?” Armstrong said, “I’d work on the engine!”

Neil was obviously no politician.

He wasn't bound by the idiots surrounding him, in his way, swinging at the engine with the wrong tools, further damaging the engine and the necessary tools twice as fast as he could fix it

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[CMD-Ky]

In 1969, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were getting ready to go to the moon when a reporter asked Armstrong, “When you’re on the moon, how many hours of life support do you have?” Neil Armstrong replied, “Six hours of life support.”

The reporter followed up the question by asking, “What if you discovered when you got on the moon that something was wrong and you couldn’t start up the engine to come back home? What would you do in those six hours you had remaining?” Armstrong said, “I’d work on the engine!”

Great anecdote, it is the first time I heard it. There are multiple lessons there. Reporters are idiots. It illustrates the dichotomy that exists between the "men of action" and "men of words" (or women, my homage to PC). ["The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements".]

I agree that legislation will survive the vicissitudes of political wind better than regulatory change. The unrestrained lust for power residing and growing in Washington is frightening; the Constitution, drafted to restrain governmental power, has become a tool to advance governmental power. My despair with politicians grows with every visit to a news site. At this point, I think any random five hundred and thirty-five used car salespersons would be both preferable and more honest than what we have now.

 

[MacTechVpr]

We're in this mess because of the power grab by the prev admin and FDA. Too many Americans are blind to the fact that FDA control under TCA is the federalization of the vaping industry just like tobacco. Are we to dismiss the effect this has had on our lives?

We have 50 states for a reason. We should not allow the dilution of our rights of representation by such political concentration. Again, should we compliantly blind ourselves to the consequences it's already had? To let Congress codify solutions which concentrate power at the agency level and reduce our voices to pleading by survey to bureaucrats? How's that worked out for us?

So I guess when they push us out in the rain…take our coat, pants and shoes…it's great that they let us keep a hat.

Let's not kid ourselves. We're the only ones standing in the way of this hazardous precedent. We certainly won't get what we don't ask for. Extract vaping from tobacco legislation. We are not combustible tobacco.

Good luck all.

 

[beckdg]

At this point, I think any random five hundred and thirty-five used car salespersons would be both preferable and more honest than what we have now.

I laughed.

Now I'm sad.

And concerned.

One line invokes all the emotion of a blockbuster movie.

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[CMD-Ky]

I laughed.

Now I'm sad.

And concerned.

One line invokes all the emotion of a blockbuster movie.

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I am quite concerned. We, here, focus on one issue, vaping and "tobacco control". The mentality that brings vapers to the vapors can be found in absolutely every area of our lives, that is the unrestrained lust for unrestrained power and control. It can be found in the five hundred thirty-five elected XXXXXX (I am exercising admirable self restraint) in DC and in the thousands of un-elected regulators.
Self-governance requires vigilance or it will be lost, sadly, it has been lost. The majority of the voting public prefers to be governed, ruled; it is simply easy. It is so so easy to accept un-examined governmental dominance for the children, to protect the stupid, to save the whatever flavor of the day, to reward sloth and indolence. Vigilance is hard.

 

[Robino1]

I am quite concerned. We, here, focus on one issue, vaping and "tobacco control". The mentality that brings vapers to the vapors can be found in absolutely every area of our lives, that is the unrestrained lust for unrestrained power and control. It can be found in the five hundred thirty-five elected XXXXXX (I am exercising admirable self restraint) in DC and in the thousands of un-elected regulators.
Self-governance requires vigilance or it will be lost, sadly, it has been lost. The majority of the voting public prefers to be governed, ruled; it is simply easy. It is so so easy to accept un-examined governmental dominance for the children, to protect the stupid, to save the whatever flavor of the day, to reward sloth and indolence. Vigilance is hard.

Amen

 

[Bronze]

Daily, I think more and more Americans are beginning to realize just how little we actually need government. Unfortunately, too many of us are tuning out when what we ought to do is make it happen.

Conservatives, by definition, do not like government. They prefer that government stay out of their lives AND VICE VERSA. Therefore, governance is left to those who like government. And guess what happens when government is left to be governed by those who like government? When the cat is gone the mice will play.

A legislative fix is still needed because it has far more permanence than anything Gottlieb can do. He will only be commissioner until the political winds change direction again. Allowing vaping to remain under the the TCA framework would be a huge mistake, and it seems to me that this is our one chance pull it out of there. Is that chance small? Yes, but it's better than no chance at all.

As I have stated many times, we will have vaping controlled by legislation and/or regulation just as nearly every human activity is. Period. Case closed. No ifs ands or buts. End of story. I'm as anti-control as anyone here. That said, I know how life works so my opening sentence stands and my fellow purists will need to get over themselves and fight for the least intrusive alternative. As it stands now, the Deeming regulations will make vaping effectively prohibitive. Any of the counter proposals are far better than what is imminent with Deeming.

BTW, if anyone disputes my opening sentence how much money would you bet I am wrong?

One last thing....we will ALWAYS have to fight for our right to vape. No legislation or no regulation is ever guaranteed permanent. Not even our constitution.

 

[Lessifer]

I'm lazy. I like to believe that the food I eat comes from farms and processing plants that have been inspected at some point in the last year(though that's probably not true). I like to believe that my car was built to certain safety standards.

Government agencies aren't all bad. Just a couple weeks ago I decided to stop eating at the Little Caesar's near my house, because there was a failed health inspection in the window, and I could go online and see that it was because they have a rodent problem.

 

[Bronze]

I'm lazy. I like to believe that the food I eat comes from farms and processing plants that have been inspected at some point in the last year(though that's probably not true). I like to believe that my car was built to certain safety standards.

Government agencies aren't all bad. Just a couple weeks ago I decided to stop eating at the Little Caesar's near my house, because there was a failed health inspection in the window, and I could go online and see that it was because they have a rodent problem.

And all along you thought that was sausage on your pizza.