Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!
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Don't forget Social Security. The sooner you die the more money you leave in that "piggy bank" too.
all the more reason to try and prevent us from drawing on it..
If they can raise the age high enough and use the FDA in place of death panels then they don't have to pay anything out, or at least pay far less, and still appear as caring..
The FDA is our death panel. From our food supply which is tainted with a bunch of God knows what, all the way down to the pharmaceuticals they shove at us from every which direction.
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Read the rest of your post, and I'm certainly not ruling out the DIY route, but I do think black market is nearly a matter of principle. The basic principle being the demand will be there for consumers who want flavored nicotine to vape. The DIY approach will somewhat keep that hidden, and it could show up like everyone, or a lot of people, have stopped vaping, FDA was right in their approach.
As far as pricing, I could see it being less than commercial since there will be virtually no overhead. I mean if I was interested in DIY wouldn't some of you all be telling me it''s way cheaper than current commercial prices? But granted, who knows what it will be?
Who to buy from I think will be challenging initially but that's always the case with the black market. After finding one or more, I think it'll be easy to obtain. Arguably easier than ordering online.
In terms of manufacturing conditions and quality, that will surely take a hit from commercial. But isn't that the case with DIY? Reputation would certainly be a factor on the black market. I currently have more faith in a dealer in the black market and what they can (consistently) make than I do in my self as a DIY'er. Maybe someday that'll change.
My first thought after reading up on the new policy is that it is tame (for the upcoming months). I currently think all 14 million possible flavor combinations will continue to be sold/marketed for up to the next 90 days. After that, I'm not sure, and will be based on how enforcement looks exactly. But even if super aggressive over the next 90 days, it would take awhile to dwindle it down to say 100 or less flavors in the market. Though, I think we are quickly headed there.
Once it's all accepted as the way things are, I think it'll be like 5 flavors at most, and only the biggest companies (like 2 to 3 of them) will offer something other than menthol / mint. I don't think PMTA will be an option for overwhelming majority of companies.
I believe it was a Reason article I read within last 2 days that said half of vaping youths claim they vape menthol. IMO, that doesn't bode well for menthol going forward. Everything else you're saying here, I concur with.
I'd also just add a side note that I've enjoyed vaping spice flavors for at least 3 years now. I highly doubt teens are vaping black pepper which is ADV for me, and my current favorite flavor. I also think less than 1/10th of 1 percent of adult vapers like that flavor. And I'm sure many vapers are in similar boat, in that they don't really care to vape whatever are the top 25 or so flavors, or those that are most likely to survive on black market. Which could be reason enough for me to consider DIY but as much as I like the flavors I like, I think I could learn to like other flavors. When I started vaping it was a tobacco flavor (or really many tobacco flavors), Cola and Coffee that were my favorites. Now, only Cola of that grouping would be of interest to me. But if Coffee and some tobacco flavor I found appealing was available (on black market), I'd certainly be willing to try it to see if I could learn to like it.
I consider the whole youth topic to be a farce. I think they will never relax and I think youth will continue to vape indefinitely. So they'll always have a inroad to restricting whatever is currently being purchased in mass quantity.
Rolling over on youth use is our downfall. But also par for the course. I don't expect us to rally behind the position that makes the most sense (allow youth to vape). Yet I also think, like many others, that by going the banning route, they've just guaranteed a whole other generation to crave getting nicotine products, thinking it cool they get to use the forbidden fruit, and it being viewed as an epidemic indefinitely. Hence, anyone thinking youth shouldn't vape, shouldn't be allowed to, will look foolish. Those holding that position will likely be in the majority, and will have lots of well meaning scientific data to back such a position. But the overarching principle of restriction will be precisely counterproductive. And at some point, the anti type propaganda will be scrutinized by non-vapers, and seen for the pack of lies that it is. Though that may be a few decades away. Here's hoping it's not.
Of course it also depends on what is illegal at which point. If high-test nic base is still legal, then cheaper - if not, then possibly sky-high. Although to be frank, I'm not too sure how many people would want to risk going to prison over that 'blissful nic high'.
And I'd only have 6 gallons max of unrefrigerated 100mg nic in VG if it looks like that may come to pass, so I couldn't supply EVERYbody. 
Maybe if/when the rest of the country grows up when it comes to a certain something else, it can be combined with that though, along with flavorings.
I agree with letting them vape. At least as long as they are able to drink and smoke. Not sure about the downfall part. That assumes our opinions matter. We're like the crowd at a football game, we can make a lot of noise but we can't affect the outcome. They know what we think and they don't care. The train will continue on its path whether we step in front of it or cheer it on.
A few posts back I was speculating that the logic of the flavor ban meant they were likely to only allow sealed juice containers. Then a few hours later Gottlieb came out said they might ban them. Think I'm done with predictions for a while. Just glad I've got that nic in the freezer.
Be careful with those generalizations. I started smoking right after my 18th birthday, and there are several others here who didn't start until after they were adults.
I challenge the assertion made by the FDA and others that nicotine itself is addictive. It does depend on how one defines addiction, but nicotine seems most like caffeine in it's effects. Since stopping smoking my reaction to a lack of nic is grouchiness/edginess, much like a lack of coffee. I'm sure most of us can recall that desperate craving that running out of cigarettes created. The addiction IMO is to the thousands of other chemicals the tobacco industry introduced.
The FDA continuously repeats the mantra that nicotine is the addictive evil substance, to the point many simply assume it's true. They need that to be accepted to justify the extreme measures being taken toward the most successful product to keep smokers off cigarettes.
I was addicted to smoking, not nicotine.
The FDA continuously repeats the mantra that nicotine is the addictive evil substance, to the point many simply assume it's true. They need that to be accepted to justify the extreme measures being taken toward the most successful product to keep smokers off cigarettes.
I was addicted to smoking, not nicotine.
The post is all about herself, husband, and son. I don't think she was presuming anything.Be careful with those generalizations. I started smoking right after my 18th birthday, and there are several others here who didn't start until after they were adults.
No I wasnt presuming that every smoker on earth started in their teens (or early teens), but I don't think we are abnormal in some way.
The reason why the majority of vapers vape is because they are addicted to cigarettes and vaping is the one thing standing between them and another cigarette.
When the question is posed on the forum here most people admit that if vaping wasn't around tommorow they would be smoking tomorrow. This is why a large portion of us on this forum has a vapocalypse box(s) and nicotine in the freezer. So that no matter what happens we can still vape.
We are addicts. And there will be millions smoking again if they take the majority of what's on the market today off.. Between removing all flavors that aren't tobacco, removing all pod systems, and picking and choosing between all that's left leaving only a couple items for sale, what is left to stand between people and cigarettes?
Maybe people will convince themselves they aren't addicted and there wont be millions returning to smoking.. but I beg to differ.
People I guess can judge me if they like and think they are better than me. I don't care.
If I’m honest with myself, I would admit with great shame I’d be first in line to buy cigarettes the morning after I ran out of vape supplies. As in, in front of the door waiting for them to open to buy those infernal death sticks. I’m ashamed to say that, but even after 3+ years of dual use followed by 7 years (as of 3/26) of just vaping, yes I would go back to cigarettes. My stepmom quit 40+ years ago and says to this day she misses stinkies, so for some that “need” never fades. Because I know without question what stands between me and smoking is vaping .... I have boxes of provaris and regulated mods, and when those die, mechs and mech squonkers. 8 litres of nic in the freezer. Flavor notes and recipes printed out in a binder, because if things go south, will our favorite diy sites still exist? I refuse to let the government assign me a death sentence.
Indeed, I fear that I would. But at this point, I think I would try other forms of NRT first. Snus or whatever would probably allow me to retain my sanity without vaping. I know that I really don't want the smoker's cough and chronic bronchitis that I had as a smoker back.
Depends on how you define that word. Yes, I'm dependent on nicotine, just as I'm dependent on caffeine. And if there was talk of banning coffee, I would stockpile green (unroasted) coffee beans as well. But I don't accept that the word "addiction" really applies to either. That word should be used to describe a dependence on something that the continued use of has dire negative consequences. So it might apply to cigarettes, due to the risk of cancer, heart disease, and COPD, as well as the side-effects that I mentioned earlier. It certainly applies to some (but not all) of the "hard drugs" out there. But I don't think it really applies to caffeine, or non-combustible nicotine use.
A Long, but Interesting article given the source.
Tobacco and E-Cigarette Lobbyists Circle as F.D.A. Chief Exits
Tobacco and E-Cigarette Lobbyists Circle as F.D.A. Chief Exits
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