Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Eskie]

True, but have you noticed that the so-called "experts" in the the US just ignore our personal experiences? They brush us off as "anecdotes".

And individually we are. However, when Dr F assembled that flavor survey with?1000s (I remember it being very high, more than 1000s, but don't want to put down some super high number and be wrong) of respondents assembled in an accepted manner regarded as valid by the FDA we stopped being anecdotes and became demonstrable evidence of the importance of flavorings to our success at stopping smoking.

@BillW50 remember skepticism is what drives science. It's the "prove it to me" approach. And when properly employed it works. Look at Einstein's theory of General Relativity. It continues to be tested to this day, and in every test has properly predicted the observation. Can't argue between that, the photoelectric effect, conversion of mass to energy that the guy was pretty smart. Yet he believed to his last day that quantum physics was incorrect. He worked years on a grand unifying theory to get quantum physics tossed. Yet quantum theory has stood up to repeated experimental testing and held together and advanced quite well, while the grand unified theory never went anywhere. So you can still be really smart and still be wrong. And that's OK, science works best when you learn from the mistakes and negative data too.

Oh and it wasn't experience that told you putting water in a cup of ice made it cold. It was you sticking your finger in to test if it was cold. After that consistently worked you didn't have to do it anymore because it was reproducible.

 

[Bronze]

Gottlieb coming up on Fox News.

 

[BillW50]

@BillW50 remember skepticism is what drives science. It's the "prove it to me" approach. And when properly employed it works.

When I was growing up, I was a huge supporter of science. I just loved it and believed what you do now. But after decades of experience, it has totally eroded away. And now, I am a science skeptic. And when you dig for the so called proof, you learn it is flimsy at best.

Look at Einstein's theory of General Relativity. It continues to be tested to this day, and in every test has properly predicted the observation. Can't argue between that, the photoelectric effect, conversion of mass to energy that the guy was pretty smart.

Einstein was told he won't have any value to society except getting a job with his name on his shirt by his superiors. And speaking about Einstein, he was wrong a lot. He believed the Universe was static for example. And a non-scientist had to show him that wasn't true. That the Universe was expanding.

And don't trust in General Relativity too much. As it is crumbling everyday. It even crumbled in his day with "Spooky Actions At A Distance". It flatly defies General Relativity. Instead of saying his General Relativity was wrong, he ignored the data like virtually all scientists do. Why did he ignore the data? Well that is what science does when it is in conflict with itself. And science conflicts with itself everyday.

Yet he believed to his last day that quantum physics was incorrect. He worked years on a grand unifying theory to get quantum physics tossed. Yet quantum theory has stood up to repeated experimental testing and held together and advanced quite well, while the grand unified theory never went anywhere. So you can still be really smart and still be wrong. And that's OK, science works best when you learn from the mistakes and negative data too.

Hahaha! That reminds me of one podcast I listened to called Astronomy Cast. And they were talking about when science got it wrong. And they said this is a good thing getting it wrong. And claimed science likes to be wrong. As they claimed that is the way science grows.

One thing that lots of people already know, is science doesn't use common sense. Everyone knows this except science. As if you are always incorrect, then you are doing something wrong. But does science want to correct this problem they have? Absolutely not! Science is the only profession I know of where you could be wrong your whole life and still keep your job.

 

[Bronze]

Scientists are as corruptable as anyone else.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Einstein was told he won't have any value to society except getting a job with his name on his shirt by his superiors. And speaking about Einstein, he was wrong a lot. He believed the Universe was static for example. And a non-scientist had to show him that wasn't true. That the Universe was expanding.

And don't trust in General Relativity too much. As it is crumbling everyday. It even crumbled in his day with "Spooky Actions At A Distance". It flatly defies General Relativity. Instead of saying his General Relativity was wrong, he ignored the data like virtually all scientists do. Why did he ignore the data? Well that is what science does when it is in conflict with itself. And science conflicts with itself everyday.

...

 

[Philabos]

Gottlieb coming up on Fox News.

I watched the interview.
To be fair, he led off by saying vaping is a good tool to get people off combustible cigarettes.
You can guess where he went next - the children.
Ed Henry did read an opposing quote, not the one I would have chosen, and mildly challenged Gottlieb. At least some effort, weak as it was, to give two sides.
Henry then asked him if he was forced out because of his policy. Gottlieb said the White House supported his policy.
Henry the changed the subject by asking him what he had done about the opioid crisis. He seemed to me somewhat surprised and gave an answer that we have to go after things early without stating specifics. Maybe he felt that started on someone else's watch and they didn't address it early. Merely speculation on my part.
Would be interested to hear other takes.

 

[BillW50]

Scientists are as corruptable as anyone else.

Even when it isn't corrupted (and scientists could be bought for as little as $5000 Astronomy Cast says, btw). As science says the dumbest things. Like in the 1800s and farmers were claiming rocks were falling out of the sky. Science said that can't be and made the farmers with experience into fools.

Later, dumb science realizes that rocks does fall out of the sky and are called meteors. Did they apologize to the farmers, hell no! Science also said that the Wright Brothers who are simpletons who repairs bicycles couldn't make a heavier than air craft to fly. But when the Wright Brothers did it, did science apologize? Oh hell no!

Edison who was barely schooled asked a scientist how much volume in a light bulb. And then the dumb scientist went off and figured out how much volume that would be by using calculations which had taken him hours and hours. This is how the scientific brains works, by the way. Doing things while lacking common sense.

Well after the scientist came back with the answer, Edison barely schooled showed him his method. He weighed a bulb without water, then weighed one with water and Edison knew how much volume was in a bulb. Edison's way is so simple. Scientist's way so hard and time consuming.

 

[Hoggy]

Sooo... Does that mean we get out our pitchforks and torches this time... against figuring stuff out?

And isn't that what the anti-vaping crowd is already doing?

 

[BillW50]

Sooo... Does that mean we get out our pitchforks and torches this time... against figuring stuff out?

And isn't that what the anti-vaping crowd is already doing?

No, just call them on it like we should be doing.

 

[BillW50]

Oh and it wasn't experience that told you putting water in a cup of ice made it cold. It was you sticking your finger in to test if it was cold. After that consistently worked you didn't have to do it anymore because it was reproducible.

Without experience, I wouldn't know that. Of course it was experience.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

This conversation reminds me of a cartoon from many decades ago. It was a single frame in a lab with a table in the middle of the floor. On the table was only a mouse in a mouse trap. There was a scientist in a lab coat on the phone. The caption was "Hello FDA, I have positive evidence that cheese causes death in mice!".

 

[BillW50]

This conversation reminds me of a cartoon from many decades ago. It was a single frame in a lab with a table in the middle of the floor. On the table was only a mouse in a mouse trap. There was a scientist in a lab coat on the phone. The caption was "Hello FDA, I have positive evidence that cheese causes death in mice!".

Sounds like a comic that Gary Larson would do in his Far Side.

 

[Jazzman]

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you thought you would get

 

[stols001]

Epistemologically, science is as much a worldview as any religion.

It can be more useful than religion (sometimes) but that's about it. You still have to believe in the scientific method, which frankly bears a striking resemblance to oh, many religions.

This whole conversation is reminding me of college where every time I studied a philosopher, I would attempt to live by their worldview, etc.

Hume was very, very uncomfortable, I have to say. Scientists don't like that dude much.

Descartes was boring I hated that dude.

Anna

 

[CMD-Ky]

Anecdote - Latin for: "I can't explain your experience so I'll ignore it".

Astronomers are the first to admit how little they know about distance star systems.

Doctors who are considered experts on a particular illness may not have had that illness themselves, but will generally treated numerous patients with that illness. In this example, I'll accept that as a substitute for having had it themselves.


Dr. Farsalinos is indeed a former smoker who switched to vaping.


True, but have you noticed that the so-called "experts" in the the US just ignore our personal experiences? They brush us off as "anecdotes".

 

[Kent C]

Hume was very, very uncomfortable, I have to say.

Hume, himself, was just as uncomfortable. Basically saying he couldn't live life under his own philosophy

Scientists don't like that dude much.

Jefferson and Adams didn't like him much either, but mainly for his take on the history of England.

eg.
Jefferson vs. Hume on JSTOR

Some Notes are in praise, but Mr. Adams scorned the famous Philosopher David Hume as a "blockhead." About him Mr. Adams also wrote, "If ever there existed a Wise Fool, a learned Idiot, a profound Dupe then ... it was David Hume."

 

[Baditude]

Is JUUL Making Moves to Wipe Out Vape Shops?

 

[WorksForMe]

Is JUUL Making Moves to Wipe Out Vape Shops?

If they say anything, I'd bet Juul will apologize and say this was the act of an overzealous former employee.


.

 

[Hoggy]

Is JUUL Making Moves to Wipe Out Vape Shops?

Wouldn't surpise me in the least, knowing Juul.

 

[ScottP]

Is JUUL Making Moves to Wipe Out Vape Shops?

There is a very simple way to counter this. All vape shops simply stop carrying JUUL. This combined with the FDA crackdown on JUUL in CStores and the online sales ban some states are implementing, would put a world of hurt on JUUL. I wouldn't mind if they were forced out of business completely. That will probably never happen though.