Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

dreamvaper

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    juul also offers 3% (~30 mg)
    right, just checked the US website and they added 3% for many options (not all though) - but for a long time there was only 5% option and it's actually not 50mg it's almost 60mg "Each pod contains 59 milligrams of nicotine per milliliter of liquid", so 3% contains ~35mg/ml

    One hit from a juul is almost identical to what one hit from a cigarette gives, nic-wise
    there are different cigs, strong, normal, lights. juul for a long time offered only 59mg/ml option which delivers more nic than most popular cigs per hit + it delivers nic to the system much faster because of the acid added.

    it's specifically made to reproduce the nicotine hit that an actual cigarette delivers
    I believe it's specifically made to get as much ppl addicted to the fast/strong nic hits from it.
    + to make them pay for the new non refillable cartridges regularly.
    you really think they had only good intentions like creating device that simulates smoking so all ppl could quit using it? Cmon, you should know better about the ....ty world we live in. There are (almost) no good intentions around, most of them are about making money and may only simulate the good intentions.
     

    Tabac man

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    OK so delivering the same nic hit as a cigarette. This isn't about amount of nic delivered it's about how the nic affects the brain. Cigarettes, which contain very little nic ,affect the brain in a certain way, which vaping doesn't unless it is in very high doses. BT even added chemicals to enhance the process. I forget all the details about dopamine receptors etc but that's the gist of it. Russel Crowe starred in a very good film about it where he played a BT whistle blower. I forget the name of the film but the whistle blower was a true story. Also good about the film was it showed Crowe could actually act if he made the effort.
     

    Brewdawg1181

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    right, just checked the US website and they added 3% for many options (not all though) - but for a long time there was only 5% option and it's actually not 50mg it's almost 60mg "Each pod contains 59 milligrams of nicotine per milliliter of liquid", so 3% contains ~35mg/ml


    there are different cigs, strong, normal, lights. Juul for a long time offered only 59mg/ml option which delivers more nic than most popular cigs per hit + it delivers nic to the system much faster because of the acid added.


    I believe it's specifically made to get as much ppl addicted to the fast/strong nic hits from it.
    + to make them pay for the new non refillable cartridges regularly.
    you really think they had only good intentions like creating device that simulates smoking so all ppl could quit using it? Cmon, you should know better about the ....ty world we live in. There are (almost) no good intentions around, most of them are about making money and may only simulate the good intentions.
    You can believe what you want about their intentions. No, the goal wasn't to help people, but to make money. But I believe it's silly to think that there was their primary goal to addict new users. Of course they wanted money, and the money was in the smokers. Still is. Smokers already existed, and how would they even know if they could get any new users to even try it? Wouldn't be a very good business model. In spite of the "teen epidemic," I'd still bet dollars to donuts that the bulk of their revenue continues to come from smokers.

    And I think you're a little confused on "+ it delivers nic to the system much faster." It doesn't, but is similar, which is the goal. It delivers the nic much faster than freebase. Here are the graphs of Juul and Blu. Juul compared to Pall Mall (12 mg) , and Blu compared to composite nic levels of test subjects favorite cigs- avg. 15mg. You must have never seen these, but look at the blood/nic levels of freebase (yellow). It's actually kind of amazing anyone can even quit with 20 mg. freebase. If you'd never heard any propaganda and knew nothing of vaping, but were ready to quit smoking and saw the data below: Would you pick up a Juul, or a Nautilus & 12mg freebase juice for your greatest chance of success?

    For critical thinkers, the world is not black and white, but full of shades of gray. Juul is neither benevolent nor pure evil.
    upload_2019-9-2_11-44-29.png
     

    stols001

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    I honestly don't believe the teen market is enough to make a dent in sales I really think the FDA et al just skewed the numbers. I mean, the majority of teens are not hooked on two pods a day I really believe. They just aren't. Maybe a few dedicated ones.

    However, getting a new generation addicted IS a thing, and while a vape habit is far better than a nic habit, I'm going to say that as long as vapes are around there will be new, never smoker users, and that is BETTER than smoking.

    I believe many places who have ordinances that you can smoke at 18, but vape at 21, are really giving smoking those two years extra of chance. I believe it was completely, totally planned that way, as for a dumb 18 year old LEGAL smoking for 2 years may have SOMETHING of a chance over vaping.

    But, this is also why the government REALLY doesn't want teen vaping at all. If you vape first, you are far less likely to smoke (IMHO) I think most teen vapers thing cigarettes are FOUL.

    With that said, just remember the Juul is the cockroach of the vaping world. If anything can perniciously addict teens, that's probably it. I mean, it's fairly well known they prefer it for a variety of reasons.

    I came perilously close to getting a Juul when I first started vaping but every gas station near me was sold out. I am super glad.

    The kid had a MUCH harder time putting down his Juul relapse than he did his 3 mg/ml cloud chucking deal. MUCH.

    Anna
     

    dreamvaper

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    + it delivers nic to the system much faster." It doesn't, but is similar, which is the goal. It delivers the nic much faster than freebase.

    much faster than freebase and faster than cigs, that's exactly what your graphs show so why do you even argue on that one?
    Key points to get ppl addicted fast - high nic conc, salt(acid) for the faster delivery/hit + small nonrefillable cartridges which are pretty expensive. When they were launching it in biggest US cities they organized big parties where they were giving starter packs to students and young ppl for free.

    Juul being half angel half devil? No, they're pure devils, especially after the latest news.
    When we'll get to the deadline for DR, and juul will remain one of the few legal vape options on the US market, you will see that I was right.
     

    englishmick

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    much faster than freebase and faster than cigs, that's exactly what your graphs show so why do you even argue on that one?
    Key points to get ppl addicted fast - high nic conc, salt(acid) for the faster delivery/hit + small nonrefillable cartridges which are pretty expensive. When they were launching it in biggest US cities they organized big parties where they were giving starter packs to students and young ppl for free.

    Juul being half angel half devil? No, they're pure devils, especially after the latest news.
    When we'll get to the deadline for DR, and juul will remain one of the few legal vape options on the US market, you will see that I was right.

    The addiction picture is complicated. I've seen numbers showing that most teen users of ecigs only do it for fairly short periods of time. You can get a good blast of nic from lozenges, I had no trouble getting through long plane flights that way even when I had just started vaping. Nobody has ever got addicted to lozenges or gum or patches as far as I know. I've heard that the addiction to cigarettes depends on a cocktail of multiple related chemicals, not just nic.

    You can get the same amount of nic from a DTL setup with much lower nic concentration because you suck in a lot more vapor. Juuls need a higher level because they are so tight.

    I could be wrong on some or all of the above, it's just what I've picked up over the years.
     

    zoiDman

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    I just watched the movie 'The Insider' that someone talked about on ECF. That was informative about what BT adds to cigs. I will never give BT another dime of my money.

    I'm Not Sure how Hollywoodized "The Insider" is. Because I have Never Seen it.

    But if you are into BT History, here is a Documentary that is Very Factual.



    It also has some Hilariously Hypocritical statements from our friend Mitch.
     

    englishmick

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    This article made me extremely angry.

    Aaaargh

    New studies (and patients that are losing their lung function) indicate that the water vapor ingested into the lungs also creates an increased chance for a deadly form of pneumonia.
     

    Eskie

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    Aaaargh

    New studies (and patients that are losing their lung function) indicate that the water vapor ingested into the lungs also creates an increased chance for a deadly form of pneumonia.

    So does a poorly maintained cool mist vaporizer people use in their homes in the winter or if they have a cold. Oh, and also the water cooling towers in buildings with central air as they can spread Legionella pneumonia. They both produce water vapor that can cause pneumonia which in some cases is deadly. So let's ban vaporizers and air conditioning. There. Safer world.

    Nope. People like A/C and hate the dry air of winter. So common sense steps like cleaning and proper maintenance reduces those risks. That's called harm reduction. Where have I heard that phrase before?
     

    Brewdawg1181

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    much faster than freebase and faster than cigs, that's exactly what your graphs show so why do you even argue on that one?
    Key points to get ppl addicted fast - high nic conc, salt(acid) for the faster delivery/hit + small nonrefillable cartridges which are pretty expensive. When they were launching it in biggest US cities they organized big parties where they were giving starter packs to students and young ppl for free.

    Juul being half angel half devil? No, they're pure devils, especially after the latest news.
    When we'll get to the deadline for DR, and juul will remain one of the few legal vape options on the US market, you will see that I was right.
    Okay, I get it. You see what you want to see. I won't argue it any more, but you didn't correctly read the graphs. To explain:
    Juul's - speed is the same as a cigarette, not "much faster." They track almost identically in speed to this point.
    upload_2019-9-3_19-5-19.png

    It reaches a higher nic level at the top, because it's compared to a relatively low 12mg cigarette. And it's Pax Lab's graph, so let's assume they're bragging a little.

    Blu's - independent testing. Look at it again. The top line is a cigarette - faster than salts, and higher nic level.

    And I never said (or believed) angel- I think you misunderstand my point. I said they want to make money. And they're not the demon they're made out to be, any more than many other companies with that motive. I recognize (and said so in my post) that what they do isn't necessarily beneficial to their industry. Make no mistake, I believe they'll hurt the vaping industry more than they already have. They have, and will do plenty of things that aren't in the interest of their customers.

    Look, I don't care. Hate them if you want. I don't like their product, or really care for them. Full disclosure: Except for the fact that my son and daughter in law no longer smoke, due to Juul. In spite of the fact I gave them free equipment and juice. My niece and nephew quit using them, but have moved on to other products. It's just hard to ignore they made a really good product (which, as a business owner, I admire), and that was their original goal, no matter how evil you think they are today.

    My only real point is that I believe it's narrow minded to think they were conceived with only evil in mind, and believe they have and never had any redeeming value.

    edit: forgot to address nic addiction. I've spent many hours reading decades of studies about it. I could post links to the very dry, peer reviewed studies, but it's boring for most. But read this one - it's a good start. There's one new(ish) study that shows a little bit of a non-smoking correlation between nic and addiction, but it's fairly vague, and required gene splicing to show any relation to it. This is the link that got me started questioning it though. Read as much as you can of it. Nicotine Propaganda
     
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    Blitzdonlife

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    I just answered the phone and and a family member asked about all of the news reports of health problems with vaping. So I went on for 20 minutes ranting about all the B.S. going on and how things are being misrepresented, etc. I know people mean well, but I couldnt help it.

    Had to vent
     

    NolaMel

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    Aaaargh

    New studies (and patients that are losing their lung function) indicate that the water vapor ingested into the lungs also creates an increased chance for a deadly form of pneumonia.
    I don’t know ... as a smoker, I had pneumonia 6 times. My current lung function is better than it was in college ( errr, several, several decades ago :rolleyes:). 3+ years of dual use, followed by 7+ years just vaping, I haven’t gotten bronchitis (a former yearly problem) or pneumonia. I’d have to think if someone like me, who’s susceptible doesn’t have issues, a person who’s never had pneumonia would be less likely to get it. Purely conjecture, since I’m not a doctor... But it does beg to question their data.
     

    Brewdawg1181

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    This article made me extremely angry.
    George Chapman is a genius. He's stumbled onto the best way to cure all ills of our society:
    "Studies show that the best way to discourage teens from using tobacco is a higher cost."

    Easy peasy. How easy life must be for those that use such infallible logic.
     

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