Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[sofarsogood]

If 13 million people repeated at every opportunity that heat sticks are smoking and unsafe that might be enough to crush the products. If government saw that as a realistic threat they might be more reasonable with vaping. No realistic taxes on vaping can come close to making up the lost taxes. Heat sticks can perfectly maintain the tax status quo. But the states are greedy. They want all smokers and non smokers to be taxed the same. A heat stick monopoly is the only way to do that.

 

[bombastinator]

If 13 million people repeated at every opportunity that heat sticks are smoking and unsafe that might be enough to crush the products. If government saw that as a realistic threat they might be more reasonable with vaping. No realistic taxes on vaping can come close to making up the lost taxes. Heat sticks can perfectly maintain the tax status quo. But the states are greedy. They want all smokers and non smokers to be taxed the same. A heat stick monopoly is the only way to do that.

Could be wrecked by timing. The heat stick design is aging. I don’t know how fast or how far it has, but It has patents and those patents have expiration dates.
I’m hoping someone else does the research on that one. Someone probably already has. There are so many things I don’t know but would like to.

 

[Rossum]

Could be wrecked by timing. The heat stick design is aging. I don’t know how fast or how far it has, but It has patents and those patents have expiration dates.
I’m hoping someone else does the research on that one. Someone probably already has. There are so many things I don’t know but would like to.

In the US, patents on those sorts of products are more-or-less irrelevant. Having the only PMTA-approved product of its kind offers much more protection against competition than a mere patent portfolio.

 

[bombastinator]

In the US, patents on those sorts of products are more-or-less irrelevant. Having the only PMTA-approved product of its kind offers much more protection against competition than a mere patent portfolio.

That seems counter intuitive. Not saying it’s wrong but the why eludes me.
PMTA seems to be this: Premarket Tobacco Product Applications

So you’re saying the FDA could simply say “NO!” without cause and not see a lawsuit.

 

[jandrew]

Sanders interests me. I do wish he was a younger man.

The last information I saw said he got two stents. That’s not a lot as heart surgeries go. A triple bypass would have been a lot. 20 years ago an open heart surgery generally bought a patient about ten years of good activity and mental acuity before they degraded. Given that timeline he would just about have time to be elected, serve two terms, and then die.
I suspect that number has gone up. I don’t have data though. I suspect we’re going to have to wait for him to recover from the operation which will take some time and reassess.

Getting stents isn't actual heart surgery --- it is just accessing the cardiac artery in question via catheterization through either the radial or femoral arteries, ballooning open the blockage and placing the stent(s). Recovery isn't much either, especially if only the radial artery was involved --- just no heavy lifting for a few days.

note: I actually first typed no "heavy lefting", which might have been a much harder recovery for Bernie

 

[zoiDman]

...

note: I actually first typed no "heavy lefting", which might have been a much harder recovery for Bernie

 

[bombastinator]

Getting stents isn't actual heart surgery --- it is just accessing the cardiac artery in question via catheterization through either the radial or femoral arteries, ballooning open the blockage and placing the stent(s). Recovery isn't much either, especially if only the radial artery was involved --- just no heavy lifting for a few days.

note: I actually first typed no "heavy lefting", which might have been a much harder recovery for Bernie

It does what a bypass would have done many years ago though.

 

[Rossum]

That seems counter intuitive. Not saying it’s wrong but the why eludes me.
PMTA seems to be this: Premarket Tobacco Product Applications

Yes, that's correct. TBH, I'm a bit shocked that someone who's been here longer than I have doesn't know what a PMTA is.

So you’re saying the FDA could simply say “NO!” without cause and not see a lawsuit.

One of the requirements to have a PMTA approved is to show that the new tobacco product you're introducing is "appropriate for the protection of public health". That is a very high bar. IIRC, only two PMTAs have ever been approved; one for some Swedish snus, and the other for IQOS.

I suppose BAT (British American Tobacco) has or will seek PMTA approval for their Heat-not-Burn product, GLO, but I'm not aware of anyone else up to that challenge.

 

[bombastinator]

Yes, that's correct. TBH, I'm a bit shocked that someone who's been here longer than I have doesn't know what a PMTA is.

I know it’s a four letter acronym which means my brain is going to jumble it so I always look them up.

One of the requirements to have a PMTA approved is to show that the new tobacco product you're introducing is "appropriate for the protection of public health". That is a very high bar. IIRC, only two PMTAs have ever been approved; one for some Swedish snus, and the other for IQOS.

It’s a very subjective bar, which means who says yea or nay is more important than the science. They might have trouble denying a copy of something that already went through. how many denied though? Lots? Or none?

I suppose BAT (British American Tobacco) has or will seek PMTA approval for their Heat-not-Burn product, GLO, but I'm not aware of anyone else up to that challenge.

All anyone would be interested in doing is copying the heat sticks anyway.

 

[Bronze]

Yes, that's correct. TBH, I'm a bit shocked that someone who's been here longer than I have doesn't know what a PMTA is.


One of the requirements to have a PMTA approved is to show that the new tobacco product you're introducing is "appropriate for the protection of public health". That is a very high bar. IIRC, only two PMTAs have ever been approved; one for some Swedish snus, and the other for IQOS.

I suppose BAT (British American Tobacco) has or will seek PMTA approval for their Heat-not-Burn product, GLO, but I'm not aware of anyone else up to that challenge.

The bar gets much lower if you have the scratch to pay off the decision makers. That excludes 99.9% of the vape vendors.

 

[sofarsogood]

Here is a scenario to consider. Vaping is hounded, banned, whatever, until it has almost no impact on the market. Heat sticks charge ahead and are available everywhere cigarettes are sold. The C stores and gas stations make sure kids get their cigs. When they are well addicted and caught they're put on the heat sticks. Why does that matater? It matters because heat stick refills are nothing more than stubby cigarettes with some extra chemicals added. They will cost the same to make, sell for the same price, and pay the same taxes as cigarettes. This means the State gets to keep their life long smokers and the 10's of thousands of dollars they collect in taxes.

 

[bombastinator]

Here is a scenario to consider. Vaping is hounded, banned, whatever, until it has almost no impact on the market. Heat sticks charge ahead and are available everywhere cigarettes are sold. The C stores and gas stations make sure kids get their cigs. When they are well addicted and caught they're put on the heat sticks. Why does that matater? It matters because heat stick refills are nothing more than stubby cigarettes with some extra chemicals added. They will cost the same to make, sell for the same price, and pay the same taxes as cigarettes. This means the State gets to keep their life long smokers and the 10's of thousands of dollars they collect in taxes.

There is a Need to database some of these numbers. How important are they to what states? Tens of thousands is less than one state employee. It’s just not a significant number. Even a million isn’t that big at the state level.

 

[puffon]

Starting to see more and more "ambulance chaser" ads, asking if your child vaped a Juul and is now addicted.
Starting to wonder if Juul or any other US based manufacture can survive these suits.
They don't have the protections against lawsuits BT has.

 

[bombastinator]

Starting to see more and more "ambulance chaser" ads, asking if your child vaped a Juul and is now addicted.
Starting to wonder if Juul or any other US based manufacture can survive these suits.
They don't have the protections against lawsuits BT has.

Haven’t seen a one myself. Different state though.

TV ads are expensive. Really expensive. Even these days. If law firms are putting out for them they expect to recoup their money and then some.

Might be interesting to know where these ads are playing and where they aren’t.

 

[Rossum]

How important are they to what states? Tens of thousands is less than one state employee.

It's tens of thousands per smoker, over each smoker's lifetime.

 

[puffon]

Haven’t seen a one myself. Different state though.

TV ads are expensive. Really expensive. Even these days. If law firms are putting out for them they expect to recoup their money and then some.

Might be interesting to know where these ads are playing and where they aren’t.

I was wrong. A person can still sue a tobacco company:
Tobacco companies to settle smoking lawsuits for $100 million

 

[Bronze]

Starting to see more and more "ambulance chaser" ads, asking if your child vaped a Juul and is now addicted.
Starting to wonder if Juul or any other US based manufacture can survive these suits.
They don't have the protections against lawsuits BT has.

Juul is BT.

 

[bombastinator]

It's tens of thousands per smoker, over each smoker's lifetime.

$per annum is what matters for budgeting

 

[Katya]

Starting to see more and more "ambulance chaser" ads, asking if your child vaped a Juul and is now addicted.
Starting to wonder if Juul or any other US based manufacture can survive these suits.
They don't have the protections against lawsuits BT has.

Ahem...

Underage Drinking

"Based on data from 2006–2010, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that, on average, alcohol is a factor in the deaths of 4,358 young people under age 21 each year.4 This includes:

• 1,580 deaths from motor vehicle crashes
  
  
• 1,269 from homicides
  
  
• 245 from alcohol poisoning, falls, burns, and drowning
  
  
• 492 from suicides"
  

Anyone suing Budweiser?

 

[bombastinator]

Ahem...

Underage Drinking

"Based on data from 2006–2010, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that, on average, alcohol is a factor in the deaths of 4,358 young people under age 21 each year.4 This includes:

• 1,580 deaths from motor vehicle crashes
  
  
• 1,269 from homicides
  
  
• 245 from alcohol poisoning, falls, burns, and drowning
  
  
• 492 from suicides"

Anyone suing Budweiser?

Currently? No idea. In the past?