Deeming Regulations have been released!!!!

[Rossum]

How long is the shelf life of those batteries???

Longer than most people think. I have 12V power tools with Li-ion battery packs that are 10 years old now. The haven't been used a lot, so the batteries didn't get many cycles, and they're all still usable.

Now that's clearly a qualitative assessment, not a quantitative one, so about 1 year and a half ago, I decided to do a quantitative test. I bought a batch of brand-new VTC5As, measured capacity and put them in storage for a year under different conditions. Then I measured their capacity again:

Room temp, fully charged: 3.2% loss
Room temp, ~50% charged: 2.3% loss
Fridge, ~50%^ charged: 1.1% loss
Freezer, ~50% charged: 0.9% loss

So you would think keeping them in the freezer is best. Not so fast. Those cells had a slightly greater increase in internal resistance, so right now, I'm recommending keeping cells in the fridge.

All of them have been back in their respective storage conditions for another half a year. Come July when they've been in storage for two years, I will test them again, as well as a set of P26As that got added to the experiment last summer.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

@Vapeon4Life How many more years can you see yourself vaping assuming nothing drastic changes in your life that makes you need or want to quit?

and now I see they are talking about maybe they'll outlaw the batteries too???

Although I firmly believe a Li-ion battery ban (for consumer sales) is in the future for the USA (because I know who my govt is, who they cater to and how much they want to keep me and "the children" safe at the detriment of everyone's freedom), I don't see a reason to be worried about it too much.

Just keep your "finger on the pulse" by sticking around here at ECF and when and if it starts looking it's going to become a reality, start worrying (and stockpiling lol).

 

[mikepetro]

@Vapeon4Life
Just keep your "finger on the pulse" by sticking around here at ECF and when and if it starts looking it's going to become a reality, start worrying (and stockpiling lol).

Should that happen, this will also be a good place to find info on which power tool batteries to take apart and scavenge the batteries. Most tool power packs are just high drain 18650s daisy chained in various series/parallel configurations.

 

[Bronze]

These eliquid recipe sites make mixing easy.

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

Should that happen, this will also be a good place to find info on which power tool batteries to take apart and scavenge the batteries. Most tool power packs are just high drain 18650s daisy chained in various series/parallel configurations.

Yeah I mentioned that on the vape mail ban thread, problem is a lot of people won't want to do that or can't do it, which is understandable. I myself have no issue with it, but I will stockpile batteries if that time comes because if you want decent, authentic batteries, you'll have to buy good brand name battery packs and that isn't cheap. If a battery pack costs $100 and there's 10 batts in it, that's $10 a batt + work involved. But I guess $10 or even $20 a battery is better than no battery at all.

Even the cheap brands' battery packs are expensive (Harbor Freight, Home Depot/Lowes house brands) because that's where the profit margin is. Hardly any, if any, profit in the actual too itself. Many times sold at a loss (doorbuster).

But the problem with cheap off-brand batt packs is they will likely contain cheap (or at least unknown) Chinese batts and there won't be any data on them or data that isn't reliable.

 

[Kent C]

- How long is the shelf life of those batteries???

Li-on batteries best store at 40% charge

How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

Table 3: Estimated recoverable capacity when storing Li-ion for one year at various temperatures. Elevated temperature hastens permanent capacity loss. Not all Li-ion systems behave the same.

Temperature/40% charge/100% charge
0°C 98% (after 1 year) 94% (after 1 year)
25°C 96% (after 1 year) 80% (after 1 year)
40°C 85% (after 1 year) 65% (after 1 year)
60°C 75% (after 1 year) 60%(after 3 months)

 

[MLEJ]

What's the difference in the Armor V1? I've never mixed any DIY juice, but I have a freezer full of 100mL Chroma for when the time comes. (hope I didn't stock up on the wrong sh.t)

You're fine.
The Armor products are packaged for long term storage. Just freeze your Chroma & it'll be good. Best to put it in glass bottles w/ good caps. Glass Bottle Outlet & Heartland Vapes sell good bottles & caps, if you don't already have some.

 

[MikeE3]

Longer than most people think. I have 12V power tools with Li-ion battery packs that are 10 years old now. The haven't been used a lot, so the batteries didn't get many cycles, and they're all still usable.

Now that's clearly a qualitative assessment, not a quantitative one, so about 1 year and a half ago, I decided to do a quantitative test. I bought a batch of brand-new VTC5As, measured capacity and put them in storage for a year under different conditions. Then I measured their capacity again:

Room temp, fully charged: 3.2% loss
Room temp, ~50% charged: 2.3% loss
Fridge, ~50%^ charged: 1.1% loss
Freezer, ~50% charged: 0.9% loss

So you would think keeping them in the freezer is best. Not so fast. Those cells had a slightly greater increase in internal resistance, so right now, I'm recommending keeping cells in the fridge.

All of them have been back in their respective storage conditions for another half a year. Come July when they've been in storage for two years, I will test them again, as well as a set of P26As that got added to the experiment last summer.

Li-on batteries best store at 40% charge

How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries - Battery University

Table 3: Estimated recoverable capacity when storing Li-ion for one year at various temperatures. Elevated temperature hastens permanent capacity loss. Not all Li-ion systems behave the same.

Temperature/40% charge/100% charge
0°C 98% (after 1 year) 94% (after 1 year)
25°C 96% (after 1 year) 80% (after 1 year)
40°C 85% (after 1 year) 65% (after 1 year)
60°C 75% (after 1 year) 60%(after 3 months)

Rossum's testing

Room temp, fully charged: 3.2% loss
Room temp, ~50% charged: 2.3% loss <-- about 70°F +/- I'm guessing
Fridge, ~50%^ charged: 1.1% loss
Freezer, ~50% charged: 0.9% loss

Battery U.

Temperature/40% charge/100% charge
0°C 98% (after 1 year) 94% (after 1 year)
25°C 96% (after 1 year) 80% (after 1 year) <--- 77°F a bit warmer than room temp
40°C 85% (after 1 year) 65% (after 1 year) <--- 104°F who stores any batt at this temp
60°C 75% (after 1 year) 60%(after 3 months) <--- 140°F ... likewise

FWIW: A big difference between your tests and Batt U. at "room temp". You show a 2.3% loss and Batt U. shows a 20% loss.

 

[Horselady154]

I don't currently have anything, besides putting the battery in my mod, to check to see what percentage it is charged. Should I be getting something? If so, what would you recommend?

 

[DaveP]

Holy crap. Many devices use these batteries.

I use them in flashlights all over the house in strategic locations where I want to know where a flashlight is when power goes off. They are in my Truck, my wife's Expedition, and in the house in drawers where they are easy to get to when needed.

I agree that people who aren't aware of the heat creating potential and explosive nature of a lithium cell need to be advised of the need to use plastic battery boxes and not just toss them in a metal tool box.

Lithium cells won't go away, but the vape devices that use them may be taxed out of reach.

 

[DaveP]

Should that happen, this will also be a good place to find info on which power tool batteries to take apart and scavenge the batteries. Most tool power packs are just high drain 18650s daisy chained in various series/parallel configurations.

18650 and 2x700 will be around for those who use them for their high end flashlights. I rotate the same cells around as needed for my vapes and my lithium flashlights.

 

[englishmick]

Rossum's testing

Room temp, fully charged: 3.2% loss
Room temp, ~50% charged: 2.3% loss <-- about 70°F +/- I'm guessing
Fridge, ~50%^ charged: 1.1% loss
Freezer, ~50% charged: 0.9% loss

Battery U.

Temperature/40% charge/100% charge
0°C 98% (after 1 year) 94% (after 1 year)
25°C 96% (after 1 year) 80% (after 1 year) <--- 77°F a bit warmer than room temp
40°C 85% (after 1 year) 65% (after 1 year) <--- 104°F who stores any batt at this temp
60°C 75% (after 1 year) 60%(after 3 months) <--- 140°F ... likewise

FWIW: A big difference between your tests and Batt U. at "room temp". You show a 2.3% loss and Batt U. shows a 20% loss.

Looks like that 20% figure is for fully charged batteries. At 40% charge the figure is 4% loss, which is similar to Rossum's number.

Bad news for me though. As soon as I take a battery out of a mod I charge it and put it in the rack to wait its turn, so my batteries spend most of their time sitting around fully charged. That's at room temp. So I hope Rossum's number for that is more accurate.

I did some arithmetic. At 0 C and 40% charge they would lose 2% in a year. If the 2% rate of loss continued over subsequent years, after 10 years in the freezer the capacity would get down to around 80%. That's not bad. If the batteries were banned tomorrow we could be OK for quite a long time. In 10 or 15 years I'm sure battery technology will be a lot different from today.

 

[mikepetro]

18650 and 2x700 will be around for those who use them for their high end flashlights. I rotate the same cells around as needed for my vapes and my lithium flashlights.

As will Lipos for the RC Hobby world. Almost all of the mods I build utilize Lipo cells. They perform better IMHO.

 

[englishmick]

I don't currently have anything, besides putting the battery in my mod, to check to see what percentage it is charged. Should I be getting something? If so, what would you recommend?

Been wondering about that myself. I know some chargers can provide more information about the state of the battery, including remaining capacity. Those chargers tend to be rather expensive. You can also check the voltage and internal resistance with a MM.

 

[englishmick]

As will Lipos for the RC Hobby world. Almost all of the mods I build utilize Lipo cells. They perform better IMHO.

Charge cycles seem to be a major factor with Li-ion batteries. My old iStick must have been through way more cycles than any Li-ion battery could handle.

 

[Doffy]

Been wondering about that myself. I know some chargers can provide more information about the state of the battery, including remaining capacity. Those chargers tend to be rather expensive. You can also check the voltage and internal resistance with a MM.

When should you replace a battery? | E-Cigarette Forum

Mooch said noticing that you get less hours or less ml out of a battery is the best health test

Fancy chargers are, for every day folk, just gimmicky nonsense IMO

 

[Bronze]

When should you replace a battery? | E-Cigarette Forum

Mooch said noticing that you get less hours or less ml out of a battery is the best health test

Fancy chargers are, for every day folk, just gimmicky nonsense IMO

Practical advice.

I vape 5mls per day. I have a 5ml tank. I change the battery every time I fill my tank. When the battery can no longer last for the 5mls it will get recycled. Simple system.

 

[CMD-Ky]

You can also check the voltage and internal resistance with a MM.

How do you check internal resistance using a multi-meter? I can't figure it.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Practical advice.

I vape 5mls per day. I have a 5ml tank. I change the battery every time I fill my tank. When the battery can no longer last for the 5mls it will get recycled. Simple system.

K.I.S.S.

 

[Bronze]

K.I.S.S.