Yep, arguing against the use of the word 'ban' and/or desiring that the sources that directly imply an actual ban is forthcoming be presented. Our call to action doesn't need, IMO, to be inflated with such hysteria. My comments to the FDA didn't mention banning or implications of it, and it was strongly worded. Wish I had more space for that commentary than that which was allotted.
Ecigs have been banned?
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Yep, arguing against the use of the word 'ban' and/or desiring that the sources that directly imply an actual ban is forthcoming be presented. Our call to action doesn't need, IMO, to be inflated with such hysteria. My comments to the FDA didn't mention banning or implications of it, and it was strongly worded. Wish I had more space for that commentary than that which was allotted.
It's an executive order. It doesn't quite have the strength of a law. On the other hand, for employees, it would be bad news to get caught.
But that's all beside the point. Regardless of the outcome, they'll declare it was a success and a good step forward. I've seen them do that exact thing. They take something that has utterly failed from all standards of measurement, declare it was a success, and move forward with it.
They built something called the State Data Center. It was to become the defacto center of all Oregon State online presence, including web services, email, etc.
It was a horrible idea, on many levels. It was also a proven abysmal failure. They didn't have enough electricity to the building, they underestimated the amount of bandwidth they needed. They underestimated the personnel they would need. They underestimated their hardware requirements. Years later, it is still incapable of meeting it's current load, much less the promised workload.
But, that didn't stop them from creating a video in conjunciton with Cisco proclaiming what a success it was. That didn't stop the State CIO at the time from literally saying in a CIO Council meeting "The SDC is a success, let's move forward". It was an abject lie, but that didn't stop the government from doing what the governement wanted, reality be damned.
If they're of a mind to, they'll do the same with anything we let them.
The problem with that argument is that the vaping pie is smaller, and will always be smaller than the pie it threatens to replace...
--Right now you have the combustible cigarette pie for Big Tobacco
--And you have the State and Federal tax pie that goes along with it
--And you have the Big Pharma pie of expensive NRT products that don't work
--And you have the Big Pharma pie of expensive treatments for smoking related disease
Getting rid of electronic cigarettes is in the best interests of all three of these groups.
And it is also in the best interests of the ANTZ who serve as their foot-soldiers.
God forbid something comes along and looks like smoking and ruins their decades long campaign to denormalize smoking.
Dont be naive.If the proposed regulations are geared toward making sure the ingredients in my juice are fairly safe I am fine with that. If the regulation is about availibility to minors, I can deal with that too. I also would like to know our juice isnt mixed on someones couch in the living room next to their dog Fluffy. But Thats as far as I go. I will even pay a hefty tax down the road(im sure its coming). The problem is that the "DEEMING" regulation will probably go way beyond this. There are so so many small USA business and commerce in jeapordy here. The FDA is going to make it impossible for all of our favorite vendors to survive. Indirectly, they will get the ban they wanted years back.
I'm an old school So Cal Punk... I couldn't care less if I offend someone....
Basically, its easier for me to live by the idea that "If you're offended, maybe you need to be offended"... LOL
BUT, I learned long ago to always stand up for yourself, your people and your beliefs...
Vapers are my people....
Sent from the ether using the power of my mind... and the Tapatalk app.
I would like to know how come we dont hear from the juice compainies and suppliers much? I understand that some go to these meetings but not a word on their websites?? Is this on purpose? Is there a reason we dont see anything about the regulation and how we all should support CASAA?
That is always something I have wondered as well.
Back when Hawaii tried to put a 70% tax on electronic cigarettes, we came together as a community, and I'm sure we had an impact
But it seems to me that the effort put forth by Volcano to mobilize their customer base was the largest factor in defeating that effort to screw vapers.
And there have been a number of other attempts to screw us across the United States.
And from what I can tell, when vendors mobilize their customers and get involved, we win much more often.
So yeah, where are the vendors?
Hopefully these guys can exact some influence (as much as they can, anyway)...
AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association
That is always something I have wondered as well.
Back when Hawaii tried to put a 70% tax on electronic cigarettes, we came together as a community, and I'm sure we had an impact
But it seems to me that the effort put forth by Volcano to mobilize their customer base was the largest factor in defeating that effort to screw vapers.
And there have been a number of other attempts to screw us across the United States.
And from what I can tell, when vendors mobilize their customers and get involved, we win much more often.
So yeah, where are the vendors?
But while I say that in general, it doesn't really apply to this thread so much...
Because vendors are not allowed to post in this subforum.
Wow... Talk about a topic that exploded inside 12 hours...
I've read everything here, and I mean everything... And I'll freely admin (although I may get flamed) that I believe the FDA has some responsibility to regulate one portion of our lifestyle choice / hobby. I choose those words because I think calling it anything other than a hobby or lifestyle choice opens the door for even further regulation. To call eCigarettes an NRT would be the nail in the coffin, so to speak.
So what would I have them regulate?
The strength of nicotine based liquids we can buy without a prescription.
I think we can all agree here that nicotine in specific strengths can kill you.
Currently, the only thing policing us from manufacturing (with zero regulation) juices with harmful or even lethal doses of nicotine is what I like to call "The Honor System"
We place our trust in manufacturers and suppliers of liquids and DIY component products to deliver a product with what they think is a safe concentration of nicotine. Many of these suppliers are making it in their homes, and while I do love a good home brew liquid, I am quite literally putting my life in their hands, and trusting them with my safety and well being.
With proper regulation, to include traceable nicotine sourcing, level testing per batch, batch numbering, full disclosure of ingredients, etc, I feel that the FDA would be doing us all a favor. There is an organization out there that seeks to do this already (Can't remember the name of the organization, but it exists). But again, this is just another form of self policing. What are the consequences for making liquids that don't comply with the rules of said organization? Sanctions? Fines? Removal from the organization? Oh well, sell from your website, but remove the organization affiliation, big deal... At what point do we hold these folks accountable, considering they are manufacturing a product that could cause you harm?
I know there are a lot of folks that think the FDA is a bunch of money hungry freaks, but seriously folks, we need to take a better look from their side of the fence.
Consider this... I manufacture a juice with what I THINK is 100mg/mL nicotine in a VG base. As it turns out it's really 250mg/mL and was labeled wrong. I intended to make a juice that was 36mg/mL in strength, but it instead ends up being 90mg/mL. I add some flavor, some PG, and market it to you on my website. You buy it, get it, like it, and decide to chain vape it. You receive acute nicotine poisoning and go into cardiac arrest...
Not very probable, because I believe we are all good hearted people, but under what set of laws do we prosecute the manufacturer? For that matter, what do we charge him with? Do we nab the manufacturer? The source of the nicotine? Where did THEY get the nicotine? Who tested the levels?
I know it sounds crazy, but I WANT there to be regulations on the manufacture of liquids, because I really do care about each and every one of you. I don't want to regulate it because I want all your money, I want to regulate it because I don't want you to die doing something you thought was saving your life.
Nicotine is a harmful, and potentially fatal drug. Just like rat poison... I think we should be able to buy and consume it as we please, but I think there should be levels that are considered "Over The Counter" (for DIY use) and concentration levels that are much higher that are strictly intended for manufacturing juices in a laboratory environment with all the proper safety precautions met.
I know that's not what this particular set of FDA regulations is all about, and I believe their pursuit of regulating the sale of PV's is ridiculous...
But if they intend to regulate the manufacture of our liquids to ensure we are vaping safely... Well, I gotta admit again, I'm all for that, and will gladly pay the higher prices for juices if it means my chance of harm is reduced.
I've read everything here, and I mean everything... And I'll freely admin (although I may get flamed) that I believe the FDA has some responsibility to regulate one portion of our lifestyle choice / hobby. I choose those words because I think calling it anything other than a hobby or lifestyle choice opens the door for even further regulation. To call eCigarettes an NRT would be the nail in the coffin, so to speak.
So what would I have them regulate?
The strength of nicotine based liquids we can buy without a prescription.
I think we can all agree here that nicotine in specific strengths can kill you.
Currently, the only thing policing us from manufacturing (with zero regulation) juices with harmful or even lethal doses of nicotine is what I like to call "The Honor System"
We place our trust in manufacturers and suppliers of liquids and DIY component products to deliver a product with what they think is a safe concentration of nicotine. Many of these suppliers are making it in their homes, and while I do love a good home brew liquid, I am quite literally putting my life in their hands, and trusting them with my safety and well being.
With proper regulation, to include traceable nicotine sourcing, level testing per batch, batch numbering, full disclosure of ingredients, etc, I feel that the FDA would be doing us all a favor. There is an organization out there that seeks to do this already (Can't remember the name of the organization, but it exists). But again, this is just another form of self policing. What are the consequences for making liquids that don't comply with the rules of said organization? Sanctions? Fines? Removal from the organization? Oh well, sell from your website, but remove the organization affiliation, big deal... At what point do we hold these folks accountable, considering they are manufacturing a product that could cause you harm?
I know there are a lot of folks that think the FDA is a bunch of money hungry freaks, but seriously folks, we need to take a better look from their side of the fence.
Consider this... I manufacture a juice with what I THINK is 100mg/mL nicotine in a VG base. As it turns out it's really 250mg/mL and was labeled wrong. I intended to make a juice that was 36mg/mL in strength, but it instead ends up being 90mg/mL. I add some flavor, some PG, and market it to you on my website. You buy it, get it, like it, and decide to chain vape it. You receive acute nicotine poisoning and go into cardiac arrest...
Not very probable, because I believe we are all good hearted people, but under what set of laws do we prosecute the manufacturer? For that matter, what do we charge him with? Do we nab the manufacturer? The source of the nicotine? Where did THEY get the nicotine? Who tested the levels?
I know it sounds crazy, but I WANT there to be regulations on the manufacture of liquids, because I really do care about each and every one of you. I don't want to regulate it because I want all your money, I want to regulate it because I don't want you to die doing something you thought was saving your life.
Nicotine is a harmful, and potentially fatal drug. Just like rat poison... I think we should be able to buy and consume it as we please, but I think there should be levels that are considered "Over The Counter" (for DIY use) and concentration levels that are much higher that are strictly intended for manufacturing juices in a laboratory environment with all the proper safety precautions met.
I know that's not what this particular set of FDA regulations is all about, and I believe their pursuit of regulating the sale of PV's is ridiculous...
But if they intend to regulate the manufacture of our liquids to ensure we are vaping safely... Well, I gotta admit again, I'm all for that, and will gladly pay the higher prices for juices if it means my chance of harm is reduced.
The vendors are somewhat limited in where they can post in EFC...that said, my juice vendor has a link to CASAA on his website, he's posted links in his threads asking people to comment and he sets his manufacturing to be consistent with the proposed AMESA regulations. i also worked with a local B&M owner when Birmingham thought about considering including e-cigs in smoking bans, that vendor is also posting links to the public comments for the FDA. (With the help of CASAA, and the voices of vapers, e-cigs were exempted from the smoking ordinance here). Anyway, my point is that not all vendors are silent.
The FDA likely plans to include e-cigs in the deeming regulations, but there have also been state by state, city by city, "battles" to have legislators and city council members understand that vaping isn't smoking, and that its a safer alternative. So, in the places we lost, there are bans, but they were made by laws and ordinances. The actions of the FDA will have a definite influences on those laws and ordinances in the future.
The FDA likely plans to include e-cigs in the deeming regulations, but there have also been state by state, city by city, "battles" to have legislators and city council members understand that vaping isn't smoking, and that its a safer alternative. So, in the places we lost, there are bans, but they were made by laws and ordinances. The actions of the FDA will have a definite influences on those laws and ordinances in the future.
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This is the exact organization I was referring to in my earlier post. I believe this organization, with backing from the FDA, CAN make a difference. In their current state, there isn't much they can do other than remove membership from a participating manufacturer. With backing from the FDA, we can shut them down for being non compliant.
Dam718 I am on board with all of that. Quite frankly thats what the FDA is supposed to be about. WE ALL know that this isnt the current agenda and thats what we are all petrified about.
I wish I could be so optimistic.
I just see too much money involved from big tobacco. They are fine with internet/mail-order ban. They will push for that. They already have a huge brick and mortar distribution system and can quickly dominate the market. Lorrillard has said as much in public. While they still sell Blu through the internet, they are not interested in that part of the business. Honestly, they (and all big tobacco) see that as a threat.
I would also be surprised if the town/city in which you live doesn't have multiple brick and mortar stores selling ecigs now. Walgreens, most liquour stores, Sams club, walmart all sell them around here. Just that they don't sell anything I want to buy. It is highly likely though that that will be the only stuff available once the FDA gets done.
I don't think their current efforts will go anywhere... I mean, how many head shops are out there to this day that continue to sell "Tobacco Water Pipes"
To attempt to regulate an electronic device that simply energizes a heating coil is pretty absurd. We just need to come up with other creative uses for the device, and bam, loophole created...
Tobacco Water Pipe... female dog, please...
To attempt to regulate an electronic device that simply energizes a heating coil is pretty absurd. We just need to come up with other creative uses for the device, and bam, loophole created...
Tobacco Water Pipe... female dog, please...
And thats all there really is to it.. Sadly we being former smokers (At least the vast majority), are in the sights of Govt.. Im sorry but there is no group of people in this country more discriminated against than us.. Talk about hate crimes and having no one there to protect "us".. We fell victim to the Big Tobacco companies early in our smoking careers, for me well before the surgeon general EVER SAID IT WAS BAD, THAN LATER by getting taxed like I was an paying a pimp to walk the streets (NY Im paying over $10 p/pack!) and now finally having kicked cigs for years with the aid of an e cigarette, have to look down the barrel of the FDA, Govt and Pharmaceuticals on weather I will be able to get and FREELY USE a product that in my opinion has saved my life is just horrible.. I shouldn't be put through this I am an American whose whole history is based on liberation from TYRANNICAL powers hell bent on hurting my chances of a true pursuit of HAPPINESS!!!
So Jman if you cant understand the vast majority of us looking to protect ourselves from the impending doom we (being many not all) have seen in our illustrious smoking careers, you are either too young to understand or just plain naive or both.. But for us who have been around the block a few times and have some common sense as to the manner we have been treated in the past are in righteous defense of it happening again to us and therefore are being proactive and prepared for the coming of what anyone with a little intuition can feel coming. Do you get it now ?? I don't need to see a written docket proposed to know where the FDA is heading with this, just as Hitler didn't give a speech on dressing up Germans in Polish uniforms to start WWII.. you don't get a written address, you just get screwed!
I have already asked one of my favorite vendors if they planned to join AEMSA. They said it was way too expensive. The dues are in the thoudands. Additionally, it would be costly to follow AEMSA protocal. They are a small company and take their own measures to ensure the safety of their program. I still buy from this vendor but I dont agree. If our E-CIG world is to be taken seriously, vendors have to lead the charge. The expense incurred from FDA regulation will make AEMSA look like chump change. Maybe we SHOULD only buy from AEMSA participants. Only the strong and willing Vendors are going to survive this.
I do not have insurance, I am totally disabled, unable to work. I can not go to see a doctor on a regular basis. Should I suffer because people like yourself believe that it should be legislated that nicotine should be prescribed. I quit smoking after 32 years 3 PAD equivalent using RYO as that was all I could afford, it took 6 weeks and I have never been more proud. That my friend, is why we fight.
I buy the cheapest e-juice, on sale, specials, get gifts from friends and family. So, for all those unemployed, retirees on strict budgets, and disabled without SSI, what would you like for them to do? I will not suffer, if I had to I'd go back to smoking. Not that I want to, I know that I am not ready to go without nicotine yet. Any legislation that would keep me from getting the supplies and equipment that I need would force me to go back to smoking. So, I am willing to make a lot of noise, sign petitions, comment on any site any time to let my voice be heard.
This is a very emotional discussion for those that tried a myriad of ways to quit, and over and over again to find ourselves a failure is disheartening. I have found my answer in vaping and I am not going to let it be taken from me without a fight. Any additional costs could perhaps force some people to go back to smoking as they can no longer afford to buy supplies. Or, simply don't want to bother seeing a doctor just to get a script.
I buy the cheapest e-juice, on sale, specials, get gifts from friends and family. So, for all those unemployed, retirees on strict budgets, and disabled without SSI, what would you like for them to do? I will not suffer, if I had to I'd go back to smoking. Not that I want to, I know that I am not ready to go without nicotine yet. Any legislation that would keep me from getting the supplies and equipment that I need would force me to go back to smoking. So, I am willing to make a lot of noise, sign petitions, comment on any site any time to let my voice be heard.
This is a very emotional discussion for those that tried a myriad of ways to quit, and over and over again to find ourselves a failure is disheartening. I have found my answer in vaping and I am not going to let it be taken from me without a fight. Any additional costs could perhaps force some people to go back to smoking as they can no longer afford to buy supplies. Or, simply don't want to bother seeing a doctor just to get a script.
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