FDA reiterates intent to propose "deeming" regulation for e-cigs and other unregulated tobacco products

[the_vape_nerd]

But Mr. FDA, is there the slightest possibility, no matter how small, that nicotine can be extracted from tomatoes or eggplant or any other nicotine containing substance?

Yes there is your honor.

Then why aren't you moving to regulate ALL nicotine containing substances?

A likely fda retort: "The product that is the subject of this litigation is derived from tobacco."

Courts are very reluctant to entertain things outside of the matter directly before them and I think any judge is going to throw that fact out of his reasoning for the simple fact of, the product they seek to regulate isn't derived from a tomato plant, the product is derived from tobacco.

 

[the_vape_nerd]

The FDA has no power to levy taxes. The US Senate and House of Representatives have that power set aside. "Deeming" applies only to whether or not a specified product is covered under the law. Right now the only covered products are cigarettes, roll-your own, and smokeless. But the law says that if the FDA would like to regulate additional products, all the FDA has to do is to issue a "deeming regulation" which proclaims that henceforth the FDA has the authority to regulate the specified product(s) under the Tobacco Act.

A deeming regulation does not get into specific rules for the products. All it does is proclaim that the products are going to be regulated by the FDA, and that in the future any rules the FDA finalizes must be followed by the regulated companies.

If the FDA does what we fear it will do, there won't be any product on which to levy taxes, even if the FDA could tax things.

Basically we fear that they will apply certain provisions of the law that were designed to deal with combustible cigarettes to these safer alternatives. For example, the law specified that the FDA could ban tobacco cigarettes that have a "characterizing flavor" (e.g., "vanilla.") Another provision that states that any product that was not actively being sold before Feb. 15, 2007 must be taken off the market until approved as a "new tobacco product" or has an application approved to be considered substantially equivalent to another product that WAS being sold before Feb 15, 2007. Note that the deadline for submitting "substantial equivalence" applications has already come and gone, and the FDA has not acted on even one of these applications that were submitted by Lorillard, RJ Reynolds, and Altria.

The results would be either a complete ban on all electronic cigarettes for years and years, or allowing a few of the earliest models (most of which are not even manufactured any more) to stay on the market. These were much less effective than current models.

Assuming some models are left on the market, they can write regulations that would make them much less effective, such as outlawing flavors, setting too-low concentration levels for nicotine, and tinkering with the hardware side of things.

First off, Vocalek, I just want to thank you for all you do for this community. You are quite articulate. I've seen your posts elsewhere and you always bring a very clear concise view of things.

Second off, in terms of veteran vapers and myself specifically, i am quite unconcerned with what they try to do on the hardware front. I don't need any more coils made for me. I can do it myself. I own a few fully mechanical mods and feel at least somewhat confident that I could build my own if need be. That genie is out of the bottle so to speak.

Third, as someone who's followed this what is your view of what they might do to large volume high concentration nicotine? I DIY mostly. My only fear is the stopping of my nic supply. Am I naive to believe the FDA might leave this alone altogether on the reasoning that so few people in the world actually DIY their own juice? I mean compared to the smoking consumer, we are quite small in number.

 

[Petrodus]

The FDA has no power to..........

TRUE !!!!!!
That's the bottom line

The topic of nicotine in Tomatoes and other plants ...
as well as processing this nic for e-cigs as well as
FDA regulating nicotine in general ...
Has been discussed Countless times in the past
and has gone nowhere.

Edit:
Tomatoes Nicotine ... Previous discussions on the ECF
Click Here

 

[jkos]

I agree with VAPE NERD. The deeming regulations will have a bigger effect on those that do not know how to DIY. Most of the people I know do not want to hassle with it.Maybe a lab in my basement to create some juice for my friends,for a small profit of course. I can see it now, just like in High School, People stopping by my locker looking for those lumpy cigarettes to buy.

 

[Paulette]

Unfortunately, I do not agree with Vape Nerd and jkos (but I certainly do hope they are right). I think there are quite a few DIYers out there. Why else would all these vendors be selling CONCENTRATES? I truly believe that if the FDA issues regulations, it will include nicotine.

 

[Vocalek]

First off, Vocalek, I just want to thank you for all you do for this community. You are quite articulate. I've seen your posts elsewhere and you always bring a very clear concise view of things.

Second off, in terms of veteran vapers and myself specifically, i am quite unconcerned with what they try to do on the hardware front. I don't need any more coils made for me. I can do it myself. I own a few fully mechanical mods and feel at least somewhat confident that I could build my own if need be. That genie is out of the bottle so to speak.

Third, as someone who's followed this what is your view of what they might do to large volume high concentration nicotine? I DIY mostly. My only fear is the stopping of my nic supply. Am I naive to believe the FDA might leave this alone altogether on the reasoning that so few people in the world actually DIY their own juice? I mean compared to the smoking consumer, we are quite small in number.

It's true that those of us who have been using these products for years will find some way to survive and the FDA will probably go nuts trying to control thousands of individuals rather than hundreds of companies. But what about the millions of smokers who haven't discovered these products yet? Draconian regulations will slow down the numbers of quitters. Some of them might never have the chance to try Tobacco Harm Reduction, but rather be stuck with "quit or die" as their only two choices. From a moral standpoint, that's bad. And from a practical standpoint, I believe there is safety in numbers. The more there are of us, the harder it becomes to stop us from saving our lives.

Second, I applaud you for your mechanical aptitude. I am not so talented. So I'll be up the creek without a paddle if they limit the hardware. I'll just have to order from China and hope my order isn't stolen intercepted by Customs.

Third, Yes, you are naive to believe the FDA would leave nicotine liquid alone. After all, it's the presence of nicotine that makes this product meet the definition of a tobacco product (the part of the definition that reads, "or derived from tobacco.") Did you notice that the European Union has asked all countries in Europe to limit nicotine content to no more than 2 mg of nicotine in a container, and no more than 4 mg per gram of liquid? That would be like buying a big box of Nicorette gum and chewing 2 pieces of 2 mg. gum per day. Sure wouldn't work for most smokers.

We can hope the FDA wouldn't be that chintzy with the nicotine levels, and in the US we do have an advantage in that there is a public comment period before any regulation is finalized. But I think it would be better to not have to fight that fight in the first place, by heading off the Demon Regulation before it comes to pass.

The more scientific information we can throw into the mix the better.

 

[jkos]

Vocalek I agree with you.The millions of potential smokers that will make the switch will have to want to give up analogs, but I don't think it is going to be easy.Like me, it started with Gr Nicotine. I had some success for awhile but it just didn't work.I went back to analogs.If it were not for a co worker trying his set up, Ego battery and DCT I probably still be smoking. I had no idea that the Ego and tank system existed. There is a learning curve involved to get what works for you. The majority of smokers only know what they see at the gas station or convenience store.They don't know there are so many different and better delivery systems. Most smokers IMO want something easy and convenient that tastes like a analog. For health and economic reasons I hope people will make the switch and stick with it until they achieve their goal of stopping smoking.It's a long road but we will keep trying.

 

[Tjloa]

Well after reading all this I have become a CASAA member. I am just so truely disapointed that anyone would try and take this away. I was a 2 pack a day smoker for 32 years. I tried a vapor cig and havent had a cig since. I just started btw lol on Dec 31. And started at 24mg of nic now down to 12. If this was to pass I cant fathom the countless people that would be affected in a negitive way. Since ive started vaping I have also gotten at least a dozen people to stop smoking and they all agree this was a life saver. Now can you imagine all the people they will also get to quit using vaping. This is just a shame to try and stop that momentum. Jeez they have been slowly but surely trying to eradicat smoking all together for years now you would think they would be backing this.

 

[rothenbj]

I've been amazed at the number I see with E Cigs or that are using them to cut down on smoking that use them at home. I've been using a mini Torpedo for a while now because it always draws attention and it's the right size and quality for me.

Lately, whenever a conversation develops, I constantly have the thought that this could end before it really has a chance to make an impact. Yes, great, we've quit. In 3 hours I won't have had a drag on a cigarette in 3 years. I now can live without them or e cigs if I have to thanks to snus. I don't want to give up my PV, but I'm more of a social vaper today. That's great- for me.

What about those that aren't where I am. What about all the kids that will still start smoking and continue until they want to finally give it up. The ANTZ would have exactly what they truly desire, the continuation of quit or die. The money will continue to come in for their cause and all will be right in the world.

 

[Berylanna]

It's true that those of us who have been using these products for years will find some way to survive and the FDA will probably go nuts trying to control thousands of individuals rather than hundreds of companies.

Unless WTA is part of keeping me off smokes. Which it is. When I drop WTA I pick up cigs.

And I'm pretty sure the FDA has had a troll on ECF to whom I and two others have mentioned WTA. He was VERY interested in getting "maoi drugs" from somewhere.

I'm scared.

 

[Chrispixx]

The FDA will do as they please. The only recourse would be legal action.

Wait a minute.......the Government petition reached it's 25,000 plus signatures. I thought Obama would be saving us anytime now.

 

[Lilkurty]

I had a conversation the other day with a US store owner about all the lies that the FDA keeps spewing and the fact that they seem to be grasping at straws in an effort to garner support from the uninformed ie: "the children"
He brought up a disturbing point...that there haven't been any issues of harm done to children yet and hoped that there wouldn't be any conveniently coinciding with the timing of the FDAs deeming.

 

[Petrodus]

On the FDA banner
"Protecting and Promoting Your Health"

Who protects Americans from the FDA ??

 

[Vocalek]

We must continue to present a threat.

 

[the_vape_nerd]

It's true that those of us who have been using these products for years will find some way to survive and the FDA will probably go nuts trying to control thousands of individuals rather than hundreds of companies. But what about the millions of smokers who haven't discovered these products yet? Draconian regulations will slow down the numbers of quitters. Some of them might never have the chance to try Tobacco Harm Reduction, but rather be stuck with "quit or die" as their only two choices. From a moral standpoint, that's bad. And from a practical standpoint, I believe there is safety in numbers. The more there are of us, the harder it becomes to stop us from saving our lives.

Second, I applaud you for your mechanical aptitude. I am not so talented. So I'll be up the creek without a paddle if they limit the hardware. I'll just have to order from China and hope my order isn't stolen intercepted by Customs.

Third, Yes, you are naive to believe the FDA would leave nicotine liquid alone. After all, it's the presence of nicotine that makes this product meet the definition of a tobacco product (the part of the definition that reads, "or derived from tobacco.") Did you notice that the European Union has asked all countries in Europe to limit nicotine content to no more than 2 mg of nicotine in a container, and no more than 4 mg per gram of liquid? That would be like buying a big box of Nicorette gum and chewing 2 pieces of 2 mg. gum per day. Sure wouldn't work for most smokers.

We can hope the FDA wouldn't be that chintzy with the nicotine levels, and in the US we do have an advantage in that there is a public comment period before any regulation is finalized. But I think it would be better to not have to fight that fight in the first place, by heading off the Demon Regulation before it comes to pass.

The more scientific information we can throw into the mix the better.

I am certainly with you on the moral front, just more or less expressing the idea that the hardware regulation would be real hard for them to enforce on folks who've gone the rebuildable route. As for your personal mechanical ability, you can do it. And if what you see in your crystal ball proves true you might have no other option. I'm not very mechanical and/or handy, but I made a point of learning how to rewick and recoil a few things because of the fda.

You are probably right on the nicotine, I guess we'll have to wait and see though. Possibly there's a workaround.

 

[the_vape_nerd]

One more thought on this:

I was understanding under the appellate court decision that the court in that case held that extracted nicotine was a tobacco product. However, I've seen other members here say that the court never really held that but instead simply suggested that had the fda tried to go that route, the tobacco product route, they might have some ground to stand on. But since they went the drug delivery device route they were out of luck because of the tobacco laws. Which is true?

If it's true that a court never held that extracted nicotine is a tobacco product, then are our juice makers/nic suppliers poised to file a legal challenge that it's even a tobacco product?

 

[zoiDman]

FDA reiterates agency’s intent to propose “deeming” regulation to apply Chapter IX of the FSPTCA to e-cigarettes, cigars, pipe tobacco, shisha/hookah, dissolvables, etc.
Tobacco Product Regulation

If ever there was a Case for a Sticky Thread on the ECF, I think this one would be a Candidate.

 

[oplholik]

I am certainly with you on the moral front, just more or less expressing the idea that the hardware regulation would be real hard for them to enforce on folks who've gone the rebuildable route. As for your personal mechanical ability, you can do it. And if what you see in your crystal ball proves true you might have no other option. I'm not very mechanical and/or handy, but I made a point of learning how to rewick and recoil a few things because of the fda.

You are probably right on the nicotine, I guess we'll have to wait and see though. Possibly there's a workaround.

See post# 1981 in this thread.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-flavorless-nicotine-liquid-made-usa-199.html

Don't know what WL may have up his sleeve, possibly something similar.

 

[zoiDman]

See post# 1981 in this thread.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-flavorless-nicotine-liquid-made-usa-199.html

Don't know what WL may have up his sleeve, possibly something similar.

That is nice for those who wish to stock up Now before the Changes happen.

 

[oplholik]

After thinking about it, maybe shouldn't have posted that to further broadcast it. But at any rate, I'm sure there will be a way around it they will find.