Heather's Heavenly Vapes - THE BIG THREAD (Part 6)

Opinionated

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Wow, gorgeous cat.

Holy crapola in all honestly I did not know a Ragdoll was a type of cat until you posted that. I was always a dog guy until my wife came along and performed that wifely magic on me and it worked hook, line and sinker. Cats and dogs from then on.

When @Opinionated said "my Ragdoll died" I thought Ragdoll was one of her cats names...I never knew...crap.

Well now I know at $10K I won't be getting one of those, ever, pretty crappy.

@LAwaters where are we now with the crap scores?

Nope, the name of my Ragdoll was Booboo (lol.. dont ask) and the name of my Siamese was Chuba.. We got the two around the same time, and since they were raised together they also died within a few months of one another..
 
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Pappy

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The greatest horse God made. He blew away the record time and he still holds the record time at the Belmont Stakes to this day...46 years later.


I would invite you to read "Seabiscuit" by Laura Hillenbrand. Yes, the movie staring Toby McGuire was based on this book, but the book is so much better. It will make you fall completely head over heels in love with that horse.

It's one of my Top 5 books of all time.
 

ShowMeTwice

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somewhere in the universe IS the center of gravity for it.... I wouldnt want to go there...
After pondering this and some quick research I come up with the following:

Gravity always points inwards towards its center.

You may not want to go there but an adventuresome type like myself just might no matter the pull...just to feel the attraction.;)
 
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Pappy

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Speaking of Top 5 books, the top 3 that immediately come to mind:

Empire of the Summer Moon: (S.C. Gwynne) - The true story of the Comanche nation and the rise and fall of Quanah Parker. An unbelievably riveting, fascinating and heartbreaking story that details the Comanche struggle without sugar coating the atrocities committed by, or against, the Comanches. I bought it at the airport, started reading it on the plane, and was completely engrossed by Page 3.

Gates of Fire (Stephen Pressfield) - Historical fiction recalling the events of the Battle of Thermopylae (The 300 Spartans story). I can't recommend this one highly enough. This one kept me up WAY too late several nights in a row, and caused me to go to work in a sleep deprived state.

Seabiscuit (Laura Hillenbrand).

I'll have to whittle down a list of several others to get down to just two more.
 

LAwaters

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@LAwaters - has HHV submitted a PMTA yet on any of their ejuices?

No. The FDA has yet to provide any guidance on how to do that. Also no guidance on the best path to ensure a successful submission. With no clarity on “substantial equivalence” (a means to show that an approved product is substantially equivalent to another — such as different flavors of e-liquid) it’s even worse.

HHV has 89 flavors and multiple customization options. As it stands, each flavor has at minimum 400 variations. Many have 1600 variations. Per flavor. Heavenly Waffles has over 25,000 different variations. The FDA treats each variation as a different product. Even though they are the same flavor.

Now, consider that each individual product has a minimum cost estimated by the FDA at $300,000. That’s not counting scientific or lab studies to back up the application.

Heavenly Waffles alone would cost a massive amount of money in the PMTA process. And that’s without any kind of guidance and profound likelihood of failure.

The FDA has been saying no vape company has submitted a single PMTA application. My explanation gives you the reason why. The industry has no idea what the FDA wants to see in the applications.

The FDA promised Congress they would provide clear guidelines. That was 10 years ago.
 

LAwaters

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Wow, gorgeous cat.

Holy crapola in all honestly I did not know a Ragdoll was a type of cat until you posted that. I was always a dog guy until my wife came along and performed that wifely magic on me and it worked hook, line and sinker. Cats and dogs from then on.

When @Opinionated said "my Ragdoll died" I thought Ragdoll was one of her cats names...I never knew...crap.

Well now I know at $10K I won't be getting one of those, ever, pretty crappy.

@LAwaters where are we now with the crap scores?

We are pegging the meter!!! It’s awesome. This is the crappiest day ever! Love it! :D
 

Bronze

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Speaking of Top 5 books, the top 3 that immediately come to mind:

Empire of the Summer Moon: (S.C. Gwynne) - The true story of the Comanche nation and the rise and fall of Quanah Parker. An unbelievably riveting, fascinating and heartbreaking story that details the Comanche struggle without sugar coating the atrocities committed by, or against, the Comanches. I bought it at the airport, started reading it on the plane, and was completely engrossed by Page 3.

Gates of Fire (Stephen Pressfield) - Historical fiction recalling the events of the Battle of Thermopylae (The 300 Spartans story). I can't recommend this one highly enough. This one kept me up WAY too late several nights in a row, and caused me to go to work in a sleep deprived state.

Seabiscuit (Laura Hillenbrand).

I'll have to whittle down a list of several others to get down to just two more.
I’ll have to pick up Seabiscuit. Good movie.
 

LAwaters

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Well, $10K is the rare one. Most are $500 - $1,500. Still!

Having cats here wasn’t especially my idea either. For some reason they always gravitated to me. Could never figure that out. My mom had a ragdoll. After she passed away we gave her cat to her brother and his wife. Then about a year later, this ragdoll started showing up. Would walk down the street and sit n watch me sitting on the front porch. Truthfully, it was like my mom sent her. Looked exactly like her cat. She was emaciated and had burrs all over her long hair. Needless to say she wasn’t far from death. Those are not self sufficient cats. So either we took her in or she dies. Tried finding owner. No go. Had the neighbor boy come over and get all the burrs out. An all day job. He came from a violent home and had a cat he lived for. Felt it was the only thing that loved him so he was perfect for this job. Still don’t know how he did it. Eventually she gained weight. Very different cats. They like to follow you around the house. Turn around and there she was. The most affectionate animal I ever had dog or cat. She’s buried in the backyard.

This reminiscence never ever fails to bring a tear to my eye.
 

Bronze

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No. The FDA has yet to provide any guidance on how to do that. Also no guidance on the best path to ensure a successful submission. With no clarity on “substantial equivalence” (a means to show that an approved product is substantially equivalent to another — such as different flavors of e-liquid) it’s even worse.

HHV has 89 flavors and multiple customization options. As it stands, each flavor has at minimum 400 variations. Many have 1600 variations. Per flavor. Heavenly Waffles has over 25,000 different variations. The FDA treats each variation as a different product. Even though they are the same flavor.

Now, consider that each individual product has a minimum cost estimated by the FDA at $300,000. That’s not counting scientific or lab studies to back up the application.

Heavenly Waffles alone would cost a massive amount of money in the PMTA process. And that’s without any kind of guidance and profound likelihood of failure.

The FDA has been saying no vape company has submitted a single PMTA application. My explanation gives you the reason why. The industry has no idea what the FDA wants to see in the applications.

The FDA promised Congress they would provide clear guidelines. That was 10 years ago.
This is why I don’t believe there will be a complete ban. Gottlieb could have let Deeming take place and vaping would be effectively outlawed as I write. But he didn’t.
 

Opinionated

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No. The FDA has yet to provide any guidance on how to do that. Also no guidance on the best path to ensure a successful submission. With no clarity on “substantial equivalence” (a means to show that an approved product is substantially equivalent to another — such as different flavors of e-liquid) it’s even worse.

HHV has 89 flavors and multiple customization options. As it stands, each flavor has at minimum 400 variations. Many have 1600 variations. Per flavor. Heavenly Waffles has over 25,000 different variations. The FDA treats each variation as a different product. Even though they are the same flavor.

Now, consider that each individual product has a minimum cost estimated by the FDA at $300,000. That’s not counting scientific or lab studies to back up the application.

Heavenly Waffles alone would cost a massive amount of money in the PMTA process. And that’s without any kind of guidance and profound likelihood of failure.

The FDA has been saying no vape company has submitted a single PMTA application. My explanation gives you the reason why. The industry has no idea what the FDA wants to see in the applications.

The FDA promised Congress they would provide clear guidelines. That was 10 years ago.

Did you read the IC whatever thingy (heat not burn tobacco) by Phillip Morris has passed the PMTA and gotten FDA approval?
 

LAwaters

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Did you read the IC whatever thingy (heat not burn tobacco) by Phillip Morris has passed the PMTA and gotten FDA approval?

I did. At the same time an application by Snus was rejected. Despite decades of evidence from Sweden and the lowest combustible tobacco smoking rates anywhere in the world, if I remember correctly.

Phillip Morris, Altria, etc. are the only ones with the money to even attempt the process. IQOS is not substantially equivalent to any vape product enough for that to help any in the vape industry as far as I know.
 

Opinionated

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I did. At the same time an application by Snus was rejected. Despite decades of evidence from Sweden and the lowest combustible tobacco smoking rates anywhere in the world, if I remember correctly.

Phillip Morris, Altria, etc. are the only ones with the money to even attempt the process. IQOS is not substantially equivalent to any vape product enough for that to help any in the vape industry as far as I know.

So is the entire vape industry just giving up and saying they cant afford to try for even a couple flavors? Is anyone going to try?

Im curious about that because soon the time will be up, and nothing will be allowed to be sold without approval..
 

Bronze

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So is the entire vape industry just giving up and saying they cant afford to try for even a couple flavors?

Im curious about that because soon the time will be up, and nothing will be allowed to be sold.
There’s no way anyone can afford those applications.
 

LAwaters

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This is why I don’t believe there will be a complete ban. Gottlieb could have let Deeming take place and vaping would be effectively outlawed as I write. But he didn’t.

I keep thinking the e-liquid manufacturers should pool their money and get a low nic unflavored e-liquid passed via PMTA. Then attempt substantial equivalence to pass flavored versions throughout the industry. I read a document written by a lawyer who is advocating for the vape industry. From his logic, it seems like it could work. I’ve asked him on Twitter, but it’s tough to answer.

It’s insane because every single ingredient is already FDA approved!

Meanwhile states are in a panic over falling tobacco settlement money. Their bonds backed by that money are in danger of default.

But enough serious crap! Let’s get back to other crap! :)
 

ShowMeTwice

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Nope, the name of my Ragdoll was Booboo (lol.. dont ask) and the name of my Siamese was Chuba.. We got the two around the same time, and since they were raised together they also died within a few months of one another..

my current cat is named Cami..

Past dogs (if we can call them that as most were wolves) were Keith, Shadow, and Wolfy..

Keith was wild, I got him when he had an injured leg in the mountains (while visiting the Sandias), nursed him back to health and then set him free again, he was too wild to keep near people.. Wolfy was a 50/50 wolf / german shepard. A women raised and bred german shepards in the mountains (Ozarks), but while in heat the ..... got out and was knocked up by a wolf.. I got her runt.. most awesome animal I have ever had. Shadow was a hybrid.. (bred) 85% wolf..

We also had a pair of Great Pyrenees back in the day, perfect herding and livestock animals, Einstein and Princess. Einstein got his name because he let Princess do all the work and only jumped in when she couldn't handle it.. lol..

Sometimes I wish I could hit more than one. This would have gotten 'like', 'funny' and 'love'!

We had a 50/50 wolf/german shepeherd some years ago - Brutus! Very smart and super cunning. Always testing who the alpha was. Have to show/teach them right off the bat as pups. Put him on his back until he submitted many times. Got bit once and only once - and he never did that again. To his final day testing, testing, testing. He was a good boy though.

Great Pyrenees = whoa huge

We had a blue merle Australian shepherd - Echo - super intense bordering on a little psycho, really smart and very loving. Got him at a horse ranch where they also bred aussies. We went up there a bunch of times and it was fun watching the aussies always trying to herd up the horses. Just being able to get out of the way once the inevitable kick came always amazed me.

Mostly we had German shepherds and a couple muts.
 

LAwaters

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So is the entire vape industry just giving up and saying they cant afford to try for even a couple flavors? Is anyone going to try?

Im curious about that because soon the time will be up, and nothing will be allowed to be sold without approval..

The industry is waiting for guidance. No sane business invests that kind of money on a nearly guaranteed failure.

Guidance — or sensible legislation and regulation.
 

ShowMeTwice

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Yikes all the regulations...deeming and all that, I cannot be the only one who gets a headache from it all.

I could have never been a lawyer (crap I just had a brain fart trying to spell lawyer) or a politician.

When I first started vaping I just couldn't handle all the over-flavored + too sweet juices and I tried many. A buddy whipped me up some unflavored at a high nic level which was fine but dang I wanted some flavor. He and his wife were into DIY and had me over to learn. That was when my AHA moment came. They helped me make some pretty good stuff and taught me a lot in the process. Haven't looked back since.

Like many here I've been stocking up for several years now cause I cannot trust our gov't and it doesn't matter which side it is they all want to mess with the vaping community. $$$ & Big T

A few years ago my doctor was on and on about vaping. She is a wonderful doctor but finally at one appointment I just told her one of those little white lies..."I quit vaping"...just to get her off my back. They don't need to know everything.

Thing is the UK, Canada and a couple other countries have taken a more, dare I say, liberal and perhaps intelligent stance on vaping. While here it has been made into a major cluster-f of epic proportions. Laughing stock of the world.

Just of bunch of crap!!! Sometimes I would like to flush all them crappers down the proverbial toilet.
 

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