A lot of us would pay the $2 per month just to continue looking at Whiskey's ever-changing, always...interesting avatars.
IF there's a ban, would ECF stay?
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A lot of us would pay the $2 per month just to continue looking at Whiskey's ever-changing, always...interesting avatars.
It's too late to stop us now. They'll try of course, now they've woken up, but once we have the numbers it will be impossible for any government to stop ecigs. Too many voters and taxpayers.
In the meantime the countries that will do best out of it will be those that recognise which way the wind is blowing, accept ecigs, and add some sort of realistic, sustainable tax. In the end that is inevitable - and at least if done soon will legitimise ecigs. They can't remain taxed as a general food product because when the tobacco tax revenues start to drop alarmingly, States and governments will scream in pain. The money has to come from somewhere.
In the meantime the countries that will do best out of it will be those that recognise which way the wind is blowing, accept ecigs, and add some sort of realistic, sustainable tax. In the end that is inevitable - and at least if done soon will legitimise ecigs. They can't remain taxed as a general food product because when the tobacco tax revenues start to drop alarmingly, States and governments will scream in pain. The money has to come from somewhere.
The house minority leader smokes. Why in the world a couple of suppliers and a juice maker don't give him a present is beyond me. If he becomes the Speaker, a call from him and the FDA will concentrate on other pressing matters......
A couple of nice starter sets and a custom flavor just for him would be a really good idea.
tobacco will give him money, but if he has skin in the game, it will help nullify their influence. In the end ecigs will be a political decision and he's at the top of the political heap.
A couple of nice starter sets and a custom flavor just for him would be a really good idea.
tobacco will give him money, but if he has skin in the game, it will help nullify their influence. In the end ecigs will be a political decision and he's at the top of the political heap.
Well, I can tell you I'm not going anywhere. I have always reserved the right to ignore laws that are asinine and insane, and will continue to do so if e-cigs are banned.
But it is nice to know ECF will be here should I ever have to put on my eye patch and go pirating.
But I also am not concerned about a total ban. There's too many of us. And there's too much potential money to be made.
Follow the money...
But it is nice to know ECF will be here should I ever have to put on my eye patch and go pirating.
But I also am not concerned about a total ban. There's too many of us. And there's too much potential money to be made.
Follow the money...
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Thanks guys! This is the kind of camaraderie I'm talking about! Yeah, I'd definitely give a few bucks a month to support this website. Hopefully, there won't be an all-out ban, but I agree w/ MistressNomad about putting on the eyepatch. That was my main point in starting this thread. Thanks, too, for you who are helping allay the fears of the ban. I'd be willing to pay some in taxes to keep e-cigs legal. What I would fear is that the government (state & federal) would see it as a vehicle for huge revenue like they have with the cigarette taxes.
They should tax bottled water, and soda, fast food, potato chips, any thing, but not my nicotine and coffee.
Nice to know ECF isn't going any where.
Nice to know ECF isn't going any where.
I don't think there will be a ban, there's too much money to be made. People are starting to come to their senses in this country, hence the increased acceptance of a certain green substance. It's idiotic that anything would be made illegal these days when there's bucks to be had. Prohibition simply doesn't work. It didn't work with booze, it doesn't work with drugs, it doesn't work with wacky tobacco (which is easier for teens to get than a pack of cigs) and it won't work with this. There's simply too many ways to get the stuff. Maybe you couldn't buy something from somebody on ECF but there's Facebook, Myspace, Craigslist, etc.
I think e-cigs will be given a wink and a nod like the diet pills/vitamins/Extenze products of the world. If anything be prepared to pay at least 100% markup on your juice and supplies because I could see the undercutting of cig prices being the biggest issue for big tobacco. I don't think they mind competition, they just don't want cheaper competition and want people to think about price tags: "Do I really want to pay $20 for that e-juice when cigs are only $5?" stuff like that.
Personally even if it cost $50 for 30ml of e-juice I'd still keep vaping. God knows it lasts me longer than a carton of cigs.
I think e-cigs will be given a wink and a nod like the diet pills/vitamins/Extenze products of the world. If anything be prepared to pay at least 100% markup on your juice and supplies because I could see the undercutting of cig prices being the biggest issue for big tobacco. I don't think they mind competition, they just don't want cheaper competition and want people to think about price tags: "Do I really want to pay $20 for that e-juice when cigs are only $5?" stuff like that.
Personally even if it cost $50 for 30ml of e-juice I'd still keep vaping. God knows it lasts me longer than a carton of cigs.
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I agree w/you XG. I don't foresee a ban as either. I do see the big tobacco company's hating the fact that numerous smokers are turning to vaping, but I don't think they could completely ban it. Let's hope not at least.
Even if it came down to a tax couldn't we just buy offshore stuff? The US govt can't tax a Chinese company if your buying it online and sending it to us. Sure it's prob not legal but we could do it. It would be hard for them to impose those taxes I mean taxing anything on the Internet it hard cause they could always make up a phony reason for what it's being sold for and then it couldn't be taxed under ecigs. I mean they already have laser pointer attachments they could just sell the batteries as batteries for laser pointers or mini flashlights. The possibilities are endless ill come up with phony reasons if they want me to. I mean how do you tax some batteries and not all if theres a variety of other ways to use them. I think the only thing they will be able to successfully tax would be the juice. The FDA is really gonna have a hard time regulating it until most of the business goes into stores. They rant like cigarettes. You can make a single $150 to $200 purchase and if you have mod for say you would be good for months. I know id just stock up on all mechanical mods then only have to worry about juice which i can make.
Basically I just think as long as theres no outright ban and business stays online the taxes will be able to be avoided and it will be a slight pain in the ... but we will survive without much damage. Sadly the US based companies would be hhe ones to suffer and we would have to wait for overseas shipments but vamping will live on and I just don't see us being taxed like cigs or and outright ban unless there's some serious research that says these thing will kill us.... But let's be honest they won't find nething close to whats in cigs
Basically I just think as long as theres no outright ban and business stays online the taxes will be able to be avoided and it will be a slight pain in the ... but we will survive without much damage. Sadly the US based companies would be hhe ones to suffer and we would have to wait for overseas shipments but vamping will live on and I just don't see us being taxed like cigs or and outright ban unless there's some serious research that says these thing will kill us.... But let's be honest they won't find nething close to whats in cigs
As per post above. Atty's can also be used in model locomotives to generate smoke. OK wouldn't work great but people would still buy them. You would find alturnative uses for all the ENI parts.
I posted this in another thread, but what I see them doing, if they get their way, is similar to what happened with stevia. The FDA blocked sales and raided stores for years after a complaint from a still unknown source, (rumor has it that it was the makers of aspertame though) even threatening a mass book burning over a diet and cookbook. When the supplement act came into effect they were forced to allow stevia to be sold as such, but it still couldn't be marketed as a sweetener. Later, Coca Cola and Pepsi jumped on the band wagon and changed a couple of chemical elements in stevia so that it was patentable. Suddenly the FDA decided to give the altered products GRAS ratings, yet true stevia is still relegated to the supplement isle. I can certainly see e-cigs being treated the same way; banned and raided until either Pfizer or Philip Morris develops their own patentable product, then the wink and nod is given to them while the FDA is still stopping every chinese package they can get their hot little hands on at the border.
I found this thread and thought it was only appropriate to support the group that saved me from the mall brands. I have saved much more than twenty four bucks from the postings of sales here on ECF. Thanks again for all the information and thanks to the vendors for all the great sales. Hopefully we are all still here cooking up deals and bringing even more great ideas to the table in all of 2011.
rolygate said:
Not only that. Once a technological genie is out the bottle, you can't put it back in. E-cig technology is here, and if e-cigs are banned, someone will start selling batts with a nightlight attachment, modified attys that light your gas stove, etc, etc. Anything to get around idiotic legislation. We may have to pay a bit extra for some stupid attachment you throw away, but hey, it's better than paying blood money for analogs, right?
OT - I didn't know members could support ECF. I'm going to check that out now and sign up, (or whatever it is I do).
Edit - Found it. The button on the top menu. Doh!! Problem is I wanted to pay for a year and there's no credit card option. I HATE Paypal. @rolygate - Any plans to introduce a credit card option?
Edit 2 - Trying to PM rolygate about supporting ECF, but I can't. Do I need more posts to PM ppl?
mac
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@Maclean
We have PayPal because most people prefer it and don't want to spread their CC around. The demand is for PP. But in a while we'll have a shopping cart on ECF and have a CC option for subs.
We have PayPal because most people prefer it and don't want to spread their CC around. The demand is for PP. But in a while we'll have a shopping cart on ECF and have a CC option for subs.
In answer to the people who have stated that ecigs will be legalised because there is money to be made from them, I'm afraid that is the opposite of the truth.
It's mainly about who will lose money due to ecigs:
1. The pharmaceutical industry
They will lose a fortune because no one will need their less-than-marvelous NRTs. As these have a success rate of somewhere between 1.65% and 7.5% depending on whose figures you believe (ie a failure rate of about 98% to 93%), neither consumers nor doctors will want them, as ecigs used for the purpose of quitting tobacco are reported to have a success rate of 60% or better (unchecked, untested reports of poll results).
(However, I personally believe that the majority of ecig owners are simply looking for an alternative to cigarettes and, like me, don't intend to quit nicotine or quit *all* types of smoking. They are smokers but not as we know them, Jim.)
Pharma are the big issue because they have huge amounts of money available to fight ecigs, and can spread that cash around generously.
2. State treasury departments
As tobacco revenue decreases, their pain will increase. Some of them can see that on the horizon and have woken up to the fact there will be a massive hole in their budgets in a few years if ecigs are allowed to grow unchecked.
3. National treasury departments
The same is true for national budgets, multiplied by a factor of [insert large figure here]. Tobacco revenue raises billions and that pays for an appreciable part of the economy. For example in the UK it not only pays for the healthcare of ill and dying smokers, it pays for most of the health service as far as I know. The national health service is virtually free, paid for by smokers - no insurance needed.
4. Big Tobacco
Funnily enough they seem to be feeling the pain less than anyone else. In fact we don't have much evidence at all of them fighting ecigs currently. But when you think about it, they can't lose: they know the writing is on the wall for tobacco cigarettes in the West. The pressure is mounting, more and more regulations are just around the corner.
Now if a new form of smoking comes out that is apparently much healthier than combustion of tobacco, and for which they can control the supply of the raw ingredients, and that requires slick marketing (their speciality), and a large injection of funds in order to control the market (which they certainly have), and which might get around many of the new, tough regulations- you have a blueprint for a new product that BT can compete in the market with very successfully. Essentially BT can't lose, whatever happens. There is no reason to suppose that a Marlboro E-Cigarette will be any less successful than the tobacco version. There are wall chargers out there in marlboro country now.
As far as the money goes, you're talking about billions - and that's billions lost from tobacco tax. Nobody is going to let that go without a fight.
It's mainly about who will lose money due to ecigs:
1. The pharmaceutical industry
They will lose a fortune because no one will need their less-than-marvelous NRTs. As these have a success rate of somewhere between 1.65% and 7.5% depending on whose figures you believe (ie a failure rate of about 98% to 93%), neither consumers nor doctors will want them, as ecigs used for the purpose of quitting tobacco are reported to have a success rate of 60% or better (unchecked, untested reports of poll results).
(However, I personally believe that the majority of ecig owners are simply looking for an alternative to cigarettes and, like me, don't intend to quit nicotine or quit *all* types of smoking. They are smokers but not as we know them, Jim.)
Pharma are the big issue because they have huge amounts of money available to fight ecigs, and can spread that cash around generously.
2. State treasury departments
As tobacco revenue decreases, their pain will increase. Some of them can see that on the horizon and have woken up to the fact there will be a massive hole in their budgets in a few years if ecigs are allowed to grow unchecked.
3. National treasury departments
The same is true for national budgets, multiplied by a factor of [insert large figure here]. Tobacco revenue raises billions and that pays for an appreciable part of the economy. For example in the UK it not only pays for the healthcare of ill and dying smokers, it pays for most of the health service as far as I know. The national health service is virtually free, paid for by smokers - no insurance needed.
4. Big Tobacco
Funnily enough they seem to be feeling the pain less than anyone else. In fact we don't have much evidence at all of them fighting ecigs currently. But when you think about it, they can't lose: they know the writing is on the wall for tobacco cigarettes in the West. The pressure is mounting, more and more regulations are just around the corner.
Now if a new form of smoking comes out that is apparently much healthier than combustion of tobacco, and for which they can control the supply of the raw ingredients, and that requires slick marketing (their speciality), and a large injection of funds in order to control the market (which they certainly have), and which might get around many of the new, tough regulations- you have a blueprint for a new product that BT can compete in the market with very successfully. Essentially BT can't lose, whatever happens. There is no reason to suppose that a Marlboro E-Cigarette will be any less successful than the tobacco version. There are wall chargers out there in marlboro country now.
As far as the money goes, you're talking about billions - and that's billions lost from tobacco tax. Nobody is going to let that go without a fight.
Cool. Thanks for replying. I really want to support ECF, but I won't sign up to PP for anyone. (It's also an option for the monthly payments I get for selling online, but I prefer to use Electronic Money Transfer).
I hope 'a while' isn't too long.
mac
In my opinion, and in the opinion of many who are fighting this fight daily, this is the most likely scenario.
And it all comes down to the court case currently underway.
As far as "bans" go, we are not really talking about a "ban" in this case.
It is quite true that electronic cigarettes are not going away.
But if the FDA wins the court case, they will be pulled off the market, which is the "ban" that people refer to.
And they will be off the market for quite some time.
When Big Pharma produces them, gets them tested, and gets them FDA approved as a drug delivery system they will be back.
And when they will return to the market, they will cost far more, probably need a prescription, and have much less nicotine in them.
This is probably the worst case scenario, and also the most likely scenario IF the FDA wins their court case.
And that is why we ALL need to be doing whatever we can to fight back.
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The hardware cannot be banned out of existence ! , it becomes a name game just like a .... vs a WATER PIPE so you will always have hardware !.
The Nicotine is another matter , BUT you can make your own ( just Google making liquid nicotine ) so there is always that.
A BAN will kill the mass market sales we currently have , and it will be come a regulated taxed to death low success POS IMO
BUT they will not be able to stop it , as they say " you cant put the Genie back in the bottle "
The Nicotine is another matter , BUT you can make your own ( just Google making liquid nicotine ) so there is always that.
A BAN will kill the mass market sales we currently have , and it will be come a regulated taxed to death low success POS IMO
BUT they will not be able to stop it , as they say " you cant put the Genie back in the bottle "
Very true Buzzkill, based on the FDA's actions though, even the hardware is a 'drug delivery device' in their eyes and thus must be stopped.
However, as every substance that has been, or currently is, illegal has proven, the black market will always be alive and well.As an aside, the arguments were heard today on the injunction. Keep in mind that this is only a court decision as to whether the FDA can or can not keep NJoy's packages from entering the country, AND a decision has not been given. However, from the report given by one of the CASAA members who sat through the proceedings, there may be a good possibility that the judges are leaning in NJoy's direction.
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