Nicotine less addictive via vaping then smoking?

[VNeil]

I just don't see any of these propaganda sources. Are they real, or imagined?...

If you want to know where they are, consider how many times you've heard "Those things are worse than cigarettes", stated to you by people that know absolutely nothing about vaping, and say it with absolute certainty.

Now determine what they heard that caused them to come to such a firm opinion, despite the fact that it absolutely flies in the face of every known fact, and who told them that, and you will find the source of the propaganda.

 

[DC2]

@VNeil

You make a very powerful and appropriate point.
You've got me reconsidering things a bit.

I also believe there is not really any proven harm yet.
And there may never be.

If there is any proven harm, then it becomes harm reduction.
If not, then we may indeed be doing ourselves a disservice using that terminology.

Your arguments remind me of some of the things that Jman8 argues.
Not so much in the content, but more from the standpoint of the traction to be gained.

Both of you may very well be right in your arguments.
But it's a question of whether those arguments can gain any traction.

 

[stevegmu]

If you want to know where they are, consider how many times you've heard "Those things are worse than cigarettes", stated to you by people that know absolutely nothing about vaping, and say it with absolute certainty.

Now determine what they heard that caused them to come to such a firm opinion, despite the fact that it absolutely flies in the face of every known fact, and who told them that, and you will find the source of the propaganda.

I am supposed to guess where these fictitious anti vapers drew their conclusions from?

 

[VNeil]

@VNeil

You make a very powerful and appropriate point.
You've got me reconsidering things a bit.

I also believe there is not really any proven harm yet.
And there may never be.

If there is any proven harm, then it becomes harm reduction.
If not, then may indeed be doing ourselves a disservice using that terminology.

Exactly. There is no harm (that we can speak of) until that harm is proven conclusively. Until then, "there is simply no known harm to vaping". To state it any other way is to fall into the trap of the propagandists, because it injects FUD.

 

[VNeil]

I am supposed to guess where these fictitious anti vapers drew their conclusions from?

They are not fictitious. I doubt that there is a single person here that's been vaping for some time that has not heard that (they are worse than cigs) multiple times. If you want to call them "fictitious" then I will assume we can't continue a dialog.

 

[VNeil]

I am supposed to guess where these fictitious anti vapers drew their conclusions from?

And if you want to know where the propaganda comes from, start here :

Google

Just googling "e-cigarettes worse than cigarettes"

If you want to hold a dialog about this it isn't very hard.

 

[zoiDman]

Our adversaries are masters at the art of semantics. That's what much of propaganda is all about. And why they are winning. When you say "Vaping is harm reduction" you are doing their work for them. You are acknowledging that there *IS* harm. Even though there is no evidence of it whatsoever. Regardless of your intent. And when I say "you" I'm talking about the multitudes here that do the same thing, repeating it endlessly.

Honestly, we are our own worst enemies.

No... No we are Not.

I have Heard Arguments like this before. Like if we Just Stopped calling an e-Cigarette an e-Cigarette, then somehow we will be Left Alone. Because having the word "Cigarette" in e-Cigarette gives the ANTZ something to Hold Over us.

You want to say that People are going to be Subliminally Swayed because the Phrase "Vaping is Harm Reduction". But fail to see that the FDA Policy Makers are going to look at the work of people like Dr. Ann Hubbs et al. when forming Regulations.

If you are Pressed for Time, why don't you Fast Forward to the 1:47:00 mark in this Seminar.



This, is what is Going to Cause 10,000x More Harm than Every Person on the Face of the Earth Yelling at the Top of their Lungs "Vaping is Harm Reduction" at the same time.

 

[stevegmu]

They are not fictitious. I doubt that there is a single person here that's been vaping for some time that has not heard that (they are worse than digs) multiple times. If you want to call them "fictitious" then I will assume we can't continue a dialog.

I don't believe in these conspiracies, ANTS watching me from black helicopters, brainwashing... It all comes down to the majority of the population not liking something which looks like smoking. That's it. Some people just don't like smoking or vaping. So be it. I don't let them bother me, control my life or influence my way of thinking. To think some propaganda campaign which I've never seen controls what everyone thinks about vaping, when they dare question any aspect of it is just silly...

 

[DC2]

To think some propaganda campaign which I've never seen controls what everyone thinks about vaping, when they dare question any aspect of it is just silly...

I agree, the California Department of Public Health is just silly.
And using our taxpayer dollars to support their silliness.

Behold, the face of anti-vaping propaganda...
California Debuts Ads to Counter E-cigarettes

Brought to you by the EXACT same folks that brought you anti-smoking propaganda.
For the last three decades plus.

Namely Satan Glantz and his ilk...
Rampant Antismoking Signifies Grave Danger

If you do a "find" on his name, it's sprinkled throughout.

 

[DaveSignal]

so we could just say that vaping appears to show health benefits over smoking, rather than that vaping reduces the harm from smoking? i think thats pro-vape semantics.

 

[stevegmu]

I agree, the California Department of Public Health is just silly.
And using our taxpayer dollars to support their silliness.

Behold, the face of anti-vaping propaganda...
California Debuts Ads to Counter E-cigarettes

Brought to you by the EXACT same folks that brought you smoking propaganda.
Namely Satan Glantz.

It's California. I pay them no more mind than the likes of Cuba. Both may be fun for a visit, but never to live...

 

[VNeil]

@VNeil

(you added this after my response...)

Your arguments remind me of some of the things that Jman8 argues.
Not so much in the content, but more from the standpoint of the traction to be gained.

Both of you may very well be right in your arguments.
But it's a question of whether those arguments can gain any traction.

Unfortunately we will not gain any traction for at least two reasons...

1. George Orwell well understood the idea that you can't fight Big Brother. The vaping war is proof of that.

2. We have already lost the war. That is evident by the fact that so few of us understand what I'm saying here. Everyone else is too busy denying the propaganda or trying to justify their (factually baseless) belief that "there must be something very wrong with vaping, we just don't know yet". It's all in this thread. And in every similar thread in the archives here. If we can't even win this war among ourselves, we have no hope to win outside this community.

Sorry to be so negative, but the handwriting is on the wall. We are out own worst enemies.

 

[VNeil]

so we could just say that vaping appears to show health benefits over smoking, rather than that vaping reduces the harm from smoking? i think thats pro-vape semantics.

One more time... why not just state the facts... "there is no known harm from vaping".

What is wrong with my statement that you feel the need to twist up some other relativistic way of saying vaping is just somewhat better than cigs? Not just you, probably the majority of the members here.

 

[DaveSignal]

nobody said there is anything wrong with vaping. long-term health effects have not been proven, but, even if there is, they are almost certainly better than smoking. 0 is less than 1. its a health improvement aka harm reduction.

 

[DaveSignal]

One more time... why not just state the facts... "there is no known harm from vaping".

What is wrong with my statement that you feel the need to twist up some other relativistic way of saying vaping is just somewhat better than cigs? Not just you, probably the majority of the members here.

I don't like the 'no known' part. We don't know the long-term health effects. And I don't like admitting that I don't know. I would rather say that vaping is much better than many other things.

 

[VNeil]

No... No we are Not.

I have Heard Arguments like this before. Like if we Just Stopped calling an e-Cigarette an e-Cigarette, then somehow we will be Left Alone. Because having the word "Cigarette" in e-Cigarette gives the ANTZ something to Hold Over us.

You want to say that People are going to be Subliminally Swayed because the Phrase "Vaping is Harm Reduction". But fail to see that the FDA Policy Makers are going to look at the work of people like Dr. Ann Hubbs et al. when forming Regulations.

If you are Pressed for Time, why don't you Fast Forward to the 1:47:00 mark in this Seminar.



This, is what is Going to Cause 10,000x More Harm than Every Person on the Face of the Earth Yelling at the Top of their Lungs "Vaping is Harm Reduction" at the same time.

I can only say that yes, you are doing your fair share with "harm reduction". And yes, the "e-cigarette" name is probably not a great idea either. It all contributes to the propaganda.

 

[VNeil]

I don't like the 'no known' part. We don't know the long-term health effects. And I don't like admitting that I don't know. I would rather say that vaping is much better than many other things.

One more time... there are hundreds of products you are exposed to and/or ingest without concern, that have not been studied any more closely than vaping.

Some products, like caffeine, are probably impossible to study simply because there are no control subjects that don't consume coffee, tea, chocolate, soda, energy drinks or the other foods that contain caffeine. But, hey, no worries there. And there are hundreds more. How about long term studies of commercial bottled drinking water?

One more time, I keep repeating myself... why is vaping held to such a higher standard? That is purely the power of propaganda.

 

[DaveSignal]

Propaganda is misleading, biased information. 'Harm reduction' is not misleading, and accounts for all possibilities down to 0, all of which are good. We do definitely know that nicotine is a stimulant and a vasoconstrictor. There could be some health benefits to it, but those are not proven. We know that nicotine can cause a chemical dependency and even if that can't be agreed with, I think we know that the act of vaping can cause a dependency to develop. Maybe these things are not bad. I believe that vaping is probably healthier than drinking soda. But that still makes it a harm reduction.

 

[zoiDman]

I can only say that yes, you are doing your fair share with "harm reduction". And yes, the "e-cigarette" name is probably not a great idea either. It all contributes to the propaganda.

Whatever you say VNeil.

I wish I could buy into your Fahrenheit 451 view that all we need to do is Remove the Words to Remove the Concept. But I think that is just Wishful Thinking.

Perhaps if things were going to be Decided by a Majority Vote of the General Population, and if Taxes, BT Profits and Political Gains could be removed from the Equation, I could give some of your Ideals more Credence.

But we ALL Know this isn't the Way this is Going to be Decided.

Right?

 

[VNeil]

Propaganda is misleading, biased information. 'Harm reduction' is not misleading, and accounts for all possibilities down to 0, all of which are good. We do definitely know that nicotine is a stimulant and a vasoconstrictor. There could be some health benefits to it, but those are not proven. We know that nicotine can cause a chemical dependency and even if that can't be agreed with, I think we know that the act of vaping can cause a dependency to develop. Maybe these things are not bad. I believe that vaping is probably healthier than drinking soda. But that still makes it a harm reduction.

Nothing in the dictionary about reduction including the elimination of....

re·duc·tion
rəˈdəkSH(ə)n/
noun

1. 1.
   the action or fact of making a specified thing smaller or less in amount, degree, or size.
   "talks on arms reduction"
   synonyms: cutback, cut, downsizing, scaling down, trimming, pruning, axing,chopping
2. 2.
   a thing that is made smaller or less in size or amount, in particular