Nicotine less addictive via vaping then smoking?
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Actually people are mad because, the FACTS all indicate that nicotine, when not delivered via tobacco, is NOT addictive. Many studies show that. So if you think nicotine, by itself, the way we vape it, is addictive, please provide links.
(and the addictive nature of tobacco delivered nicotine has nothing to do with our usage of it while vaping to combat that, so please don't go there unless you want another argument armed with the FACTS)
People get mad when you say things like "It's (vaping) still harmful" without backing up your assertion with any FACTS. When all the science says it is not harmful in any meaningful way. So again, links please.
You may be a vaper but I think people get mad when they see you (and others like yourself) carry all the propaganda water for ANTZ.
where are all these addicts you refer too?
i am not an addict. most people here are not addicts.
mater of fact if i was an addict i would be living under
the bridge with those other people and i wouldn't have the
internet's.
regards
mike
I joined ECF around 9 months ago, and if you had asked me then I would have said of course nicotine is addictive. I might have said that, I can't remember. I had never heard anything to the contrary and I knew it was so. It was obvious, right.
I listened to what people here said and followed the links to the research. Now I believe nic has little or no addictive potential in people who have never smoked. The picture is still a little fuzzy to me with regard to ex-smokers. It appears to be the case that nicotine use counteracts the withdrawal from quitting cigs. And the need for that nicotine seems to fade over time for a lot of people, which isn't typical of addiction.
You might never change your mind like I did, and that's fine. But it's worth listening. A substantial amount of research has been carried out on nicotine, and I haven't seen a single piece of evidence that shows it to be addictive outside of use in cigarettes. And a lot of evidence that it isn't addictive on its own. There are links to the research all over this site, someone can probably post some links here.
So everyone who's addicted to something is destitute and living under a bridge? I don't think so.
There's no doubt I was addicted to cigarettes, yet during the 36 years I was addicted to them, I went from an indebted college student to a successful career working for a very large corporation, to a debt-free small business owner with a rather substantial net worth.
Thanks to vaping I've been free of cigarettes for 582 days now, but I'm reasonably confident I'm still addicted to nicotine. Let's put it this way: I find it inconceivable to not vape, or to vape 0mg (which I've tried and find utterly unsatisfying).
sorry you got the wrong impression.
if you have read some of my other posts and the responses
to them you would understand my position a little better.
let me say i am the one they talk about when they say
addictive personality. the short list of things i haven't abused
at one time or another contains just one item. Freon.
i quit using illegal things well over 30 years ago.
i was always a heavy drinker since my teens however over the
last ten years or so have cut back drastically. at least when
compared to my younger days.almost 2 years ago i quit
smoking. 38 year straight habit,2 packs or more a day at
the end.
since then my own experience and research has led me
to believe that nicotine per say is not the same nicotine
i was led to believe it to be. although i still use 18 mg per ml
i find that over time i am vaping less overall than when i started.
when i purchase juice in the future i plan on reducing the
amount of nic as i feel i have less of a need for it.
so what about this addiction thing. i have known since
my youth by my involvement with other things and the
treatments there off a lot about addiction. one thing
i learned is what qualifies something as an addiction as
opposed to just a dependency. this is a very important
distinction. it has very real medical and legal ramifications.
what requires medical treatment and and legal remedies
under the law and in some cases laws that require one
to seek medical treatment.
the medical and legal definition of addiction is a habit
that causes harm to one self and or to others.
of course its not always applied that way. alcohol and
for a long time smoking are treated a little differently.
as both take some time for the effects to cause harm
aside from the obvious drunk driver or accidental fires
caused by cigarettes.over the years laws have evolved
to mitigate a lot of these short comings.
however cigarettes have been elevated to some
mysterious uber echelon of concern. primarily
do to the second hand smoke and the chillin'
theory's. we not only are harming ourselves,
some thing society tolerated for many years,
and it wasn't necessarily the people we lived
with possibly being harmed, a mans home is
his castle,it was the third party harm. the
child in the street. the lady 3 doors down who
swears she can smell your smoke. well we can't
have any of that,can we.
along the way smoking become the poster child
of addiction and all the mental imagery and
emotional baggage that goes with it.
and that is the root of my problem with the
use of the word addiction. i know most of the
people here use the term in the clinical sense
and by no means intend it to be derogatory.
some how ever use the term in the the most
derogatory sense possible.
"your a bunch of addicts in denial" or something similar.
as nicotine in the form of vaping is virtually harmless
to otherwise healthy individuals and has no second
hand harm at all it is not an addiction in the
eyes of the law and is of no real medical concern
as such i do not consider myself or others addicts
if they are vapers. if you still smoke i have got
nothing for that.
we may be dependent but that's not addiction.
we have a habit.good,bad or,annoying is for
another thread.
regards
mike
I have little doubt that there are people dependent on nicotine.
Some perhaps very dependent, and some that perhaps always will be.
It could also have something to do with how much and for how long they smoked.
And maybe it could also have something to do with how old they were when they started.
I also suspect it is more likely to be the case for people who are self-medicating with nicotine.
But the question still remains whether or not this would still be the case...
If they started using nicotine without the involvement of tobacco...
And then of course there is the question of what percentage of people this happens to.
Because it clearly seems that it is not an all or nothing thing.
EDIT: Vocalek used to post information regarding studies that showed how around 20% of smokers may never be able to quit because they become debilitated, and that it does not get better as time passes. I really wish I could find that information now, but I have so far been unable to find the right search terms that will lead me there.
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OK. I don't really make a big distinction between "habituation", "dependence", and "addiction". Fact is I'm unwilling to give up using nic, avoid places where I can't vape, will use it orally (gum) when I must be someplace I can't vape (airplanes and such), and would consider putting up armed resistance if someone were to to try to raid my freezer. No matter how physically harmless it may be (I'm vaping unflavored at the moment!), many people would consider that an "addiction", and I won't deny that it is.
I would say this applies to me, pre-vaping. I have a very hard time dealing with depression, anxiety, and ADD/focus type issues, even when I was smoking 3 pks a day. The times I tried to quit, my suffering went so far beyond 'withdrawal' it's not even funny; even with nicotine, both times I tried the patch, after about a week I found it difficult just to get out of bed, or get thru an entire day without hours of weeping, and forget all about getting anything useful accomplished. Both times, both my husband and my son BEGGED me to smoke, just to regain something like a normal ability to function.
When I first quit smoking last spring, with vaping, I really didn't have any issues; the novelty was tremendous, and the pure joy of being free of cigarettes for the first time in 39 yrs overwhelmed any negative aspects; however when I had my illness and relapse, then once again became smoke-free, I found that I simply could not carry on, until I added WTA -- at which point, all my issues and cravings and suffering completely vanished. This tells me that the biggest part of my addiction was NEVER nicotine -- if it had been, then those stupid patches would have been a lot more effective, rather than being *entirely* useless.
If BP ever had the brilliant idea to offer an NRT that included the full spectrum of tobacco alkaloids, those useless NRTs would become a LOT less useless; they might even come close to the efficacy of vaping. But of course they will never do that; it would cut into the sales of Prozac and Effexor and all the other VERY expensive antidepressants, and the lack of side-effects from WTA would probably cut into the sales of some of BP's other snake-oil. BP has NO interest in anyone actually quitting smoking, along with the gov't who wants the tobacco money; to them, smoking and all the disease and death that accompany it are huge cash cows -- I bet the morticians are up in arms about vaping too.
I also resent the negative connotations that so many seem to attach to the word "addict" -- so I'm an addict, that's really old news. I've never lived under a bridge, even during the darkest days of my drug and alcohol addictions -- I have a *disorder* which means that any substance that offers me some "payoff" will likely become an addictive substance to me -- even blueberry muffins! This is neither a moral nor character defect, it is a fact of my biology and psychology -- I was born that way, thanks to my gene pool, and though I've put aside all addictive substances except nicotine (and for a short while longer, the other tobacco alkaloids), I will remain an addict till the day I die. So what?
Andria
It is interesting that, while many if not most of the population is as "dependent" on caffeine, no one rails on about the "coffee addicts"
The use of "addict" has become political propaganda. It used to mean something very specific, namely people with dependencies with such serious side effects that most of them did end up under a bridge. But that was extended to nicotine, purely for political propaganda purposes.
Calling people "addicts" here is, again, just carrying water for ANTZ. Regardless of your own vape politics that is what you are doing when you throw around the "addict" card here.
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Yes.
Yes.
I have no problem with people who claim they are addicts.
They may very well be.
But throwing the term around as if it applies to all of us is wrong.
Just seriously, very wrong.
But I don't see most here doing that.
Only a few people who have eaten the entire propaganda pie.
Unfortunately, in the case of *some* members, I'm not really sure if it is because of the propaganda, or if it's done deliberately to be offensive, belittle others, and derail the thread. If done deliberatly, it is of course a deplorable thing to do in a community of people who should share the same goals.
Nicotine Propaganda
I couldn't agree more with the following quote:
"Use of the term 'addictive' is deliberately emotive and used for the purpose of inflaming the debate when applied to a material for which harm is impossible to measure reliably; it is incorrect because modern custom is to use the word 'dependence' and 'dependence forming' for a material causing no reliably measurable harm (e.g. coffee, for which there is some evidence for dependence creation).
'Addictive' is used when the custom or consumption is likely to cause reliably-identifiable harm of some kind (e.g. gambling addiction, {other stuff} addiction)."
Maybe that's what has been the idea of *some* people from the start. Despicable.
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Just commenting bc I'm also a non smoker who started and it also helps me with eating problems and other issues, I really don't think it's as uncommon as people think. Pretty much the same as you except any juice with nicotine makes me light headed (which I kinda like tbh) but I don't go over 3mg,I just figure there's no point since I do it for the flavor. And I also just found out from a different thread that I had a nicotine od type response from a few puffs of 6 mg so that scared me away from trying it again lol.
Yeah it's not pleasant at all -- when I first started, 18mg and 12mg almost cured me of vaping permanently! Fortunately I persevered and got some 6mg!
(and I smoked for 39 yrs!)Andria
When I started I used 24mg in a CE4 and then an EVOD. It wasn't enough. At least my sense was I wanted more. I would have gone higher if I could have gotten it from my local B&M.Yeah it's not pleasant at all -- when I first started, 18mg and 12mg almost cured me of vaping permanently! Fortunately I persevered and got some 6mg!
Andria
I just pulled out my bottle of 50mg (25P/75V) unflavored and dripped it into my Troll running 38W. It was seriously harsh, but other than a very minor sense of light headedness nothing else. I dropped it to 20W and that smoothed it out quite a bit
I normally use 3mg now in a SubTank Mini, and my drippers. And I've been dripping for hours at a time on 1mg at 30-40W lately, and it seems to do me ok. I'm going to work on that 1mg and even try it in the STM. So as I slowly work down as close to zero as I can get (at least for part of the day) I haven't really lost my tolerance. I was a 40 year 2-3 PAD smoker, but Andria, you were pretty close or equal to me. Just goes to show how we vary greatly in our response.
I'm kind of interested in using that 50 mg as something equivalent to a cig, where I need a nice nic spike while I only have time to sneak a few quick vapes. Or I have to leave a bar and join the smokers, or some situation like that.
When I started I used 24mg in a CE4 and then an EVOD. It wasn't enough. At least my sense was I wanted more. I would have gone higher if I could have gotten it from my local B&M.
I just pulled out my bottle of 50mg (25P/75V) unflavored and dripped it into my Troll running 38W. It was seriously harsh, but other than a very minor sense of light headedness nothing else. I dropped it to 20W and that smoothed it out quite a bit
I normally use 3mg now in a SubTank Mini, and my drippers. And I've been dripping for hours at a time on 1mg at 30-40W lately, and it seems to do me ok. I'm going to work on that 1mg and even try it in the STM. So as I slowly work down as close to zero as I can get (at least for part of the day) I haven't really lost my tolerance. I was a 40 year 2-3 PAD smoker, but Andria, you were pretty close or equal to me. Just goes to show how we vary greatly in our response.
I'm kind of interested in using that 50 mg as something equivalent to a cig, where I need a nice nic spike while I only have time to sneak a few quick vapes. Or I have to leave a bar and join the smokers, or some situation like that.
Well after smoking for 39 yrs, naturally I assumed that I was "addicted" to nicotine... but I've discovered, not so much. Mostly my "addiction" seems to be the minor alkaloids and the behavior itself; if it was possible to get just the minor alkaloids without nicotine, I could probably be just fine with that... but, WTA is 95% nicotine.
Andria
When I was smoking, I would have chained smoked all day, lighting the next one from the prior, if not for the cost and also a sense of guilt over what I was doing to my lungs. A lot of it was behavioral I am sure, and that is probably why I've been chain vaping pretty much the entire year since I quit.
Considering your "obsession" over WTA (you talk about it more than anyone else I know here) I understand why you think that. I know days #4-5 when I finally quit were a Living Hell. There was something I was not getting, of a chemical nature, that I'm sure of. After those terrible days it slowly got better, and after only a month or so, I think, my cravings were not what I would call "serious" and I rarely now seriously think about actually lighting up. And my wife still smokes, and it doesn't bother me at all (one way or the other). If I had to do it over, after a long relapse, I would probably use WTA but when I needed it I didn't know about it. I'm glad, just because of the cost and one thing less to wean off of. But it must be a Godsend to those like you that really needed it. It's fascinating how we are all so different in at least our perceptions of our cig habit and how it affected our cutover to vaping.
Only 9 days to my first Vaperversary (I think you call it your No Smokaversary). I think I'm going to make it. Haven't picked my present out yet
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When I was smoking, I would have chained smoked all day, lighting the next one from the prior, if not for the cost and also a sense of guilt over what I was doing to my lungs. A lot of it was behavioral I am sure, and that is probably why I've been chain vaping pretty much the entire year since I quit.
Considering your "obsession" over WTA (you talk about it more than anyone else I know here) I understand why you think that. I know days #4-5 when I finally quit were a Living Hell. There was something I was not getting, of a chemical nature, that I'm sure of. After those terrible days it slowly got better, and after only a month or so, I think, my cravings were not what I would call "serious" and I rarely now seriously think about actually lighting up. And my wife still smokes, and it doesn't bother me at all (one way or the other). If I had to do it over, after a long relapse, I would probably use WTA but when I needed it I didn't know about it. I'm glad, just because of the cost and one thing less to wean off of. But it must be Godsend to those like you that really needed it. It's fascinating how we are all so different in at least our perceptions of our cig habit and how it affected our cutover to vaping.
Only 9 days to my first Vaperversary (I think you call it your No Smokaversary). I think I'm going to make it. Haven't picked my present out yet
The reason why vaping has worked for me is because it's easy -- no suffering. The first time, the pure novelty and joy over FINALLY quitting the stupid coffin nails carried me thru the early days, and even the depression I felt at the 3wk and 3mo points didn't last very long, maybe about a week each time, but no cravings. But after coming back from that relapse... if I hadn't been able to get some WTA, I simply wouldn't have made it -- the reason why all my previous attempts failed so miserably was because the suffering was simply too awful to endure -- even for someone with the experience of cold-turkey alcohol detox, and, at the times I tried to quit smoking, a few years of sobriety behind me.
When those cravings hit, shortly after I was able to get out of bed following my illness, I even told my husband "I didn't sign up for THIS!" So I smoked, for a month until I was able to put them down again -- and having successfully done that, and been smoke-free again for 10 days, those horrible cravings came BACK, though I was literally "vaping my face off" with 10mg, the highest nic level I could tolerate -- higher than I had ever used regularly. Was it the stress? Or the purely physical mayhem in my digestive system? I'll never know for sure, but WTA completely dismissed those cravings, which nicotine alone was unable to do. It was like flipping a switch, the change was so complete -- I didn't "feel" any difference in the vape itself, but the night after I had added the WTA that morning, I realized I had not suffered a craving all day long -- they were just GONE -- and have never returned, though I've been decreasing it steadily since the first of the year.
I talk about it a lot, because WTA is the means whereby those like me, suffering *physical* cravings, now have the means to be free of them -- and that is absolutely PRICELESS. Also I'm completely outraged that it took VAPERS to come up with it; BP with all their trillions never did -- because even if they'd thought of it, they wouldn't offer it, because if people really quit, they won't need to buy anymore useless NRT, and if WTA takes care of their stress-related withdrawal problems, they also won't need to buy those expensive and dangerous SSRIs (which have their own withdrawal syndrome!).
Andria
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