propylene glycol, and glycerine...... see this, if you havent already.

[RestrictedAccess]

There's a lot of people that sound like they're getting a little defensive about this. I think there's an important thing to be considered regarding this thread, and, for that matter, and devil's advocate argument about PG. The FDA is looking for a reason to ban e-cigs. tobacco companies are chomping at the bit to get them off the market because they're a threat to sales. One of the best ways to ban a substance is to increase public fear of said substance - that's what they did with ........ and alcohol, and it's what they're doing with cigarettes and e-cigs.

We need to arm ourselves with an understanding of the health effects of what we inhale, because there will come a time when these studies are quoted to us by public officials looking to ban e-cigs. The OP's argument should be seen as something to practice on (and be grateful for).

I don't believe that any negative effects of PG should instantly invalidate the benefits of e-cigs, but I do think that the study should be picked apart so we're ready to refute naysayers who would use said study as a basis for claiming e-cigs are bad for us.

 

[Asha Vahishta]

I just found this:
(link removed)

Clinical trials on electronic cigarettes containing propylene glycol were carried out in New Zealand by Dr. Murray Laugeson of Health New Zealand and can be found on the website of SS Choice LLC (link removed) under the tab "Media Coverage." Far from posing a threat to our health, the propylene glycol in e cigarettes might just keep us healthy.

That's encouraging info.

From the MSDS the TWA is 10mg/m³ which means that OSHA (overly cautious) says that you can work 8hr/day 40hr/week in an environment which contains 10mg of PG in every m³ of air with no harmful long term effects.

I may have made some mistakes or incorrect assumptions in the following, so don't trust my analysis, do it yourself.

average lung capacity 4.5L = 0.0045m³

10mg/m³ X 0.0045m³= .045mg of PG per inhale would be considered safe by OSHA

Does anyone know the approximate mg of PG in a puff?

 

[satoshi]

I just found this:
Propylene glycol in e cigarettes might keep us healthy, says researcher..


Heres the link: Propylene glycol in e cigarettes might keep us healthy, says researchers

This is a press release written by the company...the author is the site linked at the end. Google 'ss choice' as well.

The Time article it cites is from the 1940's, and the New Zealand study was funded by Ruyan- an e-cig manufacturer.

 

[Steamin' E.]

That's encouraging info.

From the MSDS the TWA is 10mg/m³ which means that OSHA (overly cautious) says that you can work 8hr/day 40hr/week in an environment which contains 10mg of PG in every m³ of air with no harmful long term effects.

I may have made some mistakes or incorrect assumptions in the following, so don't trust my analysis, do it yourself.

average lung capacity 4.5L = 0.0045m³

10mg/m³ X 0.0045m³= .045mg of PG per inhale would be considered safe by OSHA

Does anyone know the approximate mg of PG in a puff?

A KR8 cartomizer supposedly holds 0.7mL of juice (approximately 0.7mg), and supposedly provides 200 puffs. But let's say 155 puffs to be more conservative. This works out to 0.0045mg per puff, or one-tenth of your calculated OSHA-safe level of .045mg.

Keep in mind, too, that not every breath a vaper takes is in the form of a drag off his or her PV. They get to breathe normal air most of the time, unlike the factory worker who spends 40 hours a week breathing PG vapor at the OSHA threshold.

 

[Steamin' E.]

A KR8 cartomizer supposedly holds 0.7mL of juice (approximately 0.7mg), and supposedly provides 200 puffs. But let's say 155 puffs to be more conservative. This works out to 0.0045mg per puff, or one-tenth of your calculated OSHA-safe level of .045mg.

Keep in mind, too, that not every breath a vaper takes is in the form of a drag off his or her PV. They get to breathe normal air most of the time, unlike the factory worker who spends 40 hours a week breathing PG vapor at the OSHA threshold.

Oops. 0.7mL of ejuice weighs 0.7g, not 0.7mg. And, upon double-checking, it seems that a KR8 cart will hold a full mL of juice (of course, if your juice is 30% VG, you'll still be at 0.7g of PG per carto). That'll change things a bit (a ton, actually)! It means that each puff (assuming you can drain the cart in 155 puffs) contains 6.45mg of PG, or 140 times beyond your calculated OSHA-safe level of .045mg/per inhale.

At rest, I take roughly 15 breaths/minute = 900 per hour
While working in the PG factory, I'll guess that the factory worker is breathing at, conservatively, 17 breaths/minute = 1020 per hour
1020 X an 8-hour day = 8,160 breaths...

8,160 X OSHA threshold of .045mg/lungfull = 367mg/workday

Taking 24 drags an hour for 17 hours a day = 408 drags/day
408 X 6.45mg = 2.63 grams per day for a 2+ carto-a-day vaper
Obviously, for the 1+ carto-a-day vapers, that gets cut to about 1.3 grams per day (well below the previously-mentioned WHO 1.88g daily limit for a 75kg man).

I guess it comes down to whether you believe OSHA or WHO... and how much you vape.

I personally have never tried an electronic cigarette, so for all I know, all the above assumptions might be all but worthless.

Maybe the safest route (barring allergies/sensitivity) would be the middle ground, either alternating days between VG and PG, or always vaping a juice with fairly balanced VG/PG ratios.

Keep in mind, I'm currently the most noobed-out noob on ECF.

 

[Asha Vahishta]

Thanks Satoshi,
It’s always important to know who funded the report and I didn’t check.

Steamin' E.
Your numbers look good to me but I have a tendency to be sloppy (see above)
Lets recalculate the OSHA # for a 7 day week

367mg/workday X 5 days = 1835mg/week
1835mg/week divided by 7days/week = 262mg/day

If we haven’t made any mistakes or incorrect assumptions then we could say that receiving 262mg/day will not harm you. OSHA’s TWA # is to be read as, less than X is safe. It is not to be read as, more than X will harm you. OSHA’s LD₅₀ is the, this will kill 50% of people exposed number. LD₅₀ for an 81kg person is 1600g in a single dose. Two important points to consider, OSHA is conservative with it’s numbers and I have no idea how they came up with a TWA of 10mg/m³

I don’t know much about the WHO (not the band ) but their # seems to be for injected or eaten PG which would not indicate the effects on the lungs due to inhalation.

Crunching the numbers is fun but until someone does some real research on PV’s, it’s all just guesswork.

 

[cdog2008]

ok this hole Vg Pg safe thing is unbelievable, pg is much safer than vg just do some research, be creative, google propylene glycol in nebulizers and you will see it is used for breathing machines, not all drugs use it but it clearly states it is used in nebulizers, that should tell you something, also go to DOW the leading maker of PG and see it is used in the medical field, im not saying VG isnt safe, but its tested safe for digestion and no tests i could find say its safe for inhalation, so in my personal opinion im not gonna be the lab rat for inhaling vegetable oil in my lungs, i would rather trust something the medical field and the FDA use and say safe, so on that note im saying PG all the way and ill take my chances on 1 ingredient and save my self from the 3000+ chemicals and now carpet glue added to the list so it puts itself out if left in an ashtray, so come on people weigh it out 1 sterile ingredient or 3000+ un sterile ingredients in analogs.. another thing that irritates me is prob 100% of people on this site smoke or did smoke analogs and wernt to concerned about how bad analogs are when they smoked and all the chemicals in them, but god forbid we smoke one chemical from an e-cig and people are all the sudden concerned about what they put in there lungs. think about it, if people are worried about it go back to analogs and kill your selves. do a search on the chemicals in an analog and then go throw up you will be shocked

 

[satoshi]

ok this hole Vg Pg safe thing is unbelievable, pg is much safer than vg just do some research, be creative, google propylene glycol in nebulizers and you will see it is used for breathing machines, not all drugs use it but it clearly states it is used in nebulizers, that should tell you something, also go to DOW the leading maker of PG and see it is used in the medical field, im not saying VG isnt safe, but its tested safe for digestion and no tests i could find say its safe for inhalation, so in my personal opinion im not gonna be the lab rat for inhaling vegetable oil in my lungs, i would rather trust something the medical field and the FDA use and say safe, so on that note im saying PG all the way and ill take my chances on 1 ingredient and save my self from the 3000+ chemicals and now carpet glue added to the list so it puts itself out if left in an ashtray, so come on people weigh it out 1 sterile ingredient or 3000+ un sterile ingredients in analogs.. another thing that irritates me is prob 100% of people on this site smoke or did smoke analogs and wernt to concerned about how bad analogs are when they smoked and all the chemicals in them, but god forbid we smoke one chemical from an e-cig and people are all the sudden concerned about what they put in there lungs. think about it, if people are worried about it go back to analogs and kill your selves. do a search on the chemicals in an analog and then go throw up you will be shocked

But it's not like the only two choices in life are smoking analogs or smoking e-cigs. There are snus, NRT, ariva/stonewall dissolvables, etc. to still get the nicotine fix, if someone's not going to give that up.

 

[leannebug]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I don't know if this one has been posted...
I stumbled across this while searching for something else. Thought it might be noteworthy.

Pet Food and Treat Ingredient Propylene Glycol

 

[underwater goddess]

Kinda random, but...

Several of the types of bread at Subway contain large amounts (it was near the top of the list) of PG.

(I have allergies, so I read labels before eating anything)

 

[mel_vin]

i think the biggest problem IMHO, is that this boils down to: this is to good to be true syndrome. Most of the comon thing here is that people didnt want to give up smoking, or admitied to "loving" smoking etc. Then along comes e-cigs. What? Its not smoke? What, I CAN still get nicotine and the oral fixation? What? Only a hand full of chemicals, possibly safer? NO WAY!

To the poster who said that PG is safer than VG and said to do some creative google searching...I dunno man. Chemo can kill cancer but will mess you up along the way too, and I can go on about different drugs deemed safe but have nasty side effects. I know when I inhaled PG based e-cigs...my mouth blew up in cankers...and no it was NOT from quitting smoking, I had quit 2 months back and only started vaping recently. I aslo just felt lousy from it. I stopped and low and behold I was better...and well I was using 0mg juice too. Tied VG relectantly I might add from the horrible expireince with PG and well havent really noticed anything from it...then again Im using this mainly on the weekends "socially"

I think the biggest problem that I see with vaping, is that people are taking this for granted, and are over doing it thinking this HAS to be safer than smoking. Then people use their e-cigs like pacifiers contsantly vaping where as smoking that wasnt always the case pending on your situation....then your getting into these mods that look like some sort of crack pipe on steroids to give the best TH or clouds of vaper...maybe Im parnoid, but I think people are asking for it with these things.

Moderation I think is key for this. as for PG/VG. Well yes PG maybe used for some medical reasons, but people arent sucking on large quantities of it either, plus mixing it with nicotine. VG the claim is it can turn toxic at the right temp (which unless you are using some super mod high voltage thing wont happen) but hey each drag of a cigarette would be deemed toxic too. The real question is here, how much or how long before damage is done if at all.

 

[USinchains]

....... edit, misunderstood last poster's point.

 

[ImYourSalt]

That doesn't sound very good.

Though it hardly holds a candle to the harmful effects of cigarette smoking!

 

[mel_vin]

whats not to understand? I thought I was pretty clear. Perhaps maybe people are over vaping (when you compare to how much they actually smoked) and this cant be any better for you, especially when we really dont know long term effects of vaping....

plus you have these mods that are doubling your intake or vape, flavor etc. Did you smoke more that 1 cigarette at once? I think I've seen a persons avatar here with like 50 cigs in his mouth.

My personal favorite is the USB passthrough, I mean how chronic does that look in all honestly? When I've showed that to people they just shake their heads (both smokers and non alike) and they are, like WTF is that for? I mean yeah its great for when your batteries die, but it does look weird...

Dont get me wrong, I really really hope vaping doesnt screw people up in the long term. It came in handy for me just this weekend. was out with some friends who still smoke, we were having some drinks, then went out side and I joined them...but used my e-cig instead. it was great...and every time I have failed to remain off anologs due to situations like that, this is where I favor vaping.

But dont think for one second that I dont always think in the back of my mind is this really better than smoking? Or ok, this may not cause cancer (or may reduce your chances in what little data we have about it), but what will it do/cause instead? And I wanted to quit anologs because I know what the effects are of it, and each time I lit up I would think why am I doing this...because I like it....yet its very bad *sigh*

As always the things you enjoy are always bad for ya I guess...

 

[martha1014]

So did they remove the PG from IV infusion of Valium. No I don't think so. If it so bad for you then why do they put it in these medications. Surely they have a purpose.

The event only occured at a high level of PG injected through the blood. I don't think the amount produced in ecig is anywhere near what was injected.

As far as I know there has not been any reported cases in people using ecigs( I am pretty sure we would have hear about it)

 

[lorikay13]

So did they remove the PG from IV infusion of Valium. No I don't think so. If it so bad for you then why do they put it in these medications. Surely they have a purpose.

Yes..that purpose is to MAKE MONEY FOR BIG PHARMA.

The event only occured at a high level of PG injected through the blood. I don't think the amount produced in ecig is anywhere near what was injected.

And how would you know that? Do we all understand that there is a literal Universe of difference between what we think....and what we know? In fact some people would posit that none of us know anything. We just make choices about which thoughts to believe.

As far as I know there has not been any reported cases in people using ecigs( I am pretty sure we would have hear about it

No offense but this is right up there with if it wasn't true they couldn't print it.

Martha...I am not picking on you personally. I make the same thought errors everyday just like most all of us do. Unless we are specifically trained to think scientifically, like certain of our most estemed members, (Hi Scott!) then in all seriousness....we dont really know how to think about these things. But allow me to throw out something I believe to be a fact based on my own training that might put this in perspective.

The numbers you see on an MSDS are almost NEVER based on human trials....think about it....how would they possibly know???? Unless you believe the XFiles and think they use prisons for human experimintation these findings are based on ANIMALS. Just look at the difference in nicotine toxicity between mice and dogs to see how useless this info is.

If you want to see a three ring HazMat circus tip over a milk truck. Milk is considered one of the most toxic spills there is. Why? Because of the deadly bacteria that will immediatly and certainly colinate anything it touches.

 

[mel_vin]

I posted this in another section of the forum. But I would like to see people go to their DR's about this, hear me out:

You take a PG'er and a VG'er and have them go to their perspective DR's. Get some basic blood work done, maybe even chest x-rays. Go back 6 months later and get the same work done and see if any numbers change.

I know there are to many other variables that might make this inconclusive but might be a start...thoughts?

 

[cdog2008]

I posted this in another section of the forum. But I would like to see people go to their DR's about this, hear me out:

You take a PG'er and a VG'er and have them go to their perspective DR's. Get some basic blood work done, maybe even chest x-rays. Go back 6 months later and get the same work done and see if any numbers change.

I know there are to many other variables that might make this inconclusive but might be a start...thoughts?

did you do a google search, did you go to DOW who makes PG and see the list of things PG is used for, did you go to the FDA reports that PG is considered safe. it is used in asthma and lung patients on a regular basis and in IV's to dillute the drugs, among a hundred other things. give me a break, people could care less that they were inhaling 3000 chemicals in an analog, BUT GOD FORBID!! people are so worried about 3 chemicals, PG, NICOTINE AND FOOD FLAVORING. FACE IT ANALOGS CAUSE CANCER!! PG IS NOT KNOWN TO CAUSE CANCER OR ELSE IT WOULD BE TAKEN OUT OF MEDICAL, FOOD, WOMENS MAKE UP, AND THE LIST GOES ON. NICOTINE DOES NOT CAUSE CANCER(MEDICAL FACT) AND FOOD FLAVORING DOES NOT CAUSE CANCER. DONT BE HIPPOCRITS DO THE MATH. JUST LOOKING AT THE TRUTH ABOUT ANALOGS, E-CIGS ARE 3000 TIMES SAFER THAN ANALOGS!! ILL TAKE MY CHANCES ON E-CIGS AND 3 INGREDIENTS

 

[lorikay13]

I too have made the choice...although how informed it is remains to be seen....to vape instead of smoke. And I try to choose my juices wisely. That said may I repsectfully point out that it used to be a "known fact" that the world was flat and the Earth was the center of the Universe.

Mel_Vin...I agree with you. It may not be scientifically valid per-se...but it would be a start. If nothing else it would tell you something about you...me something about me...etc. To seriously consider this though I think you would have to be well over the effects of analogs and nicotine withdrawals first, don't you think ? Maybe a base line CBC and nutritional chem panel when you first quit analogs and then go from there?
btw...i see your from Toronto....whats the state of medicine up there as it relates to ecigs? Do you have any experience with sympathetic doctors?

 

[bobtow]

So, I am aware that many of you may have seen this already.... I am also aware that many have not. Either way, there will be some discussion within this post... I am sure of that!
The links that follow are the MSDS (material safety data sheets) sheets for propylene glycol and glycerine. Whether they are GRAS (generally recognized as safe) or not, these are detailed safety standards for the materials at hand. All of us in here come into mass exposures of these materials through vaping.
I know that this post will lead to some heated discussions, but the links are pure facts. Make an informed descion from there.



propylene glycol....
http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Propylene_glycol-9927239
*note section 3, page 1.....substance may be toxic to central nervous system (CNS).
Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.
*note section 11, page 4..... may cause damage to the following organs: central nervous system
*note top of page 5... specifically ingestion, inhalation, and CHRONIC EXPOSURE....
Ingestion: It may cause gastrointestinal tract irritation. It may affect behavior/central nervous system(CNS
depression, general anesthetic, convulsions, seizures, somnolence, stupor, muscle contraction or spasticity,
coma), brain (changes in surface EEG), metabolism, blood (intravascular hemolysis, white blood cells - decreased
neutrophil function), respiration (respiratory stimulation, chronic pulmonary edema, cyanosis), cardiovascular
system(hypotension, bradycardia, arrhythmias, cardiac arrest), endocrine system (hypoglycemia), urinary system
(kidneys), and liver.
Chronic Potential Health Effects:
Skin: Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause allergic contact dermatitis.
Ingestion: Prolonged or repeated ingestion may cause hyperglycemia and may affect behavior/CNS (symptoms
similar to that of acute ingestion).
Inhalation: Prolonged or repeated inhalation may affect behavior/CNS (with symptoms similar to ingestion), and
spleen
glycerine.....
http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Glycerin-9927350
*note section 3, page 1..... The substance may be toxic to kidneys.
Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.
*note section 11, page 5..... Chronic Effects on Humans: May cause damage to the following organs: kidneys.
*note section 11, page 5..... Chronic Potential Health Effects:
Ingestion: Prolonged or repeated ingestion may affect the blood(hemolysis, changes in white blood cell count),
endocrine system (changes in adrenal weight), respiratory system, and may cause kidney injury.



Well, there it is......
Please, as I vape all the time, I welcome any thoughts on this.....
It has to be shown.

....

There were three or four diferent forms of pg listed there. I checked out pg UPS and got a totally different answer.